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I got hired at a Bangladesh sweatshop. Meet my 9-year-old boss [video]

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Re: I got hired at a Bangladesh sweatshop. Meet my 9-year-old boss [video]

#51

Post by tinco »

mjfern wrote: post #25

How about a Watsi for children (and their families) that have to work in sweatshops to make ends meet? Anyone interested in exploring this further? Some challenges: - Verifying the children that you support through the Watsi-type program already work in this environment (or will soon have to) as a necessity to economically support their families. - Ensuring that, once you donate money, the children are no longer work…

Watsi has too much overhead per child to make a difference on this level I think.

Why not do what the entire world should be doing in the first place? Pay children to go to school.

This way you remove the overhead of a campaign for every single child, and make sure they are going to school at the same time.

Re: I got hired at a Bangladesh sweatshop. Meet my 9-year-old boss [video]

#52

Post by ewzimm »

calibraxis wrote: post #36
RodericDay wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The way I answer people that say this is: It's not good enough. Yes, you can come up with all the explanation whatsoever you want to how this is a ~local maxima~ of happiness, but the fact is that we live on a much higher one with tons of disposable income and benefit from their work... so it s not a ~global maxima~ (not even close) so we should do better. What can I say? I'm definitely more to the left than most peo…

Thank you for enduring the indignant replies! Yes, this place is dominated by strata of society driven to justify organized child labor, even after seeing the face of one such 9 year old. Throughout history, such people justified all sorts of things. I know many like them in person, and am constantly weirded out. (One reason I dislike hanging out with programmers, managers and investors.) The banally evil things stum…

It's logical that people would want to defend these things because abusive labor practices are driving almost every aspect of our lives in the Western world. Our food, our clothes, our phones, our computers, our furniture, almost everything that we buy is manufactured and sold though exploitation.

People have a tendency to fight problems when they seem manageable, but labor exploitation is so out of control, the only options seem like flight into some kind of back-to-the-land movement or justification. It's too bad that this kind of mentality is so prevalent among people who think of themselves as problem solvers.

Re: I got hired at a Bangladesh sweatshop. Meet my 9-year-old boss [video]

#53

Post by Killah911 »

RodericDay wrote: post #24
L_Rahman wrote: post #16

As someone who's spent his life roughly equally split across Bangladesh and America, I thought I'd provide some perspective. The questions I ask myself about this situation are: 1. Are the lives of the people who work in these factories better or worse as a result of these jobs existing? The answer I end up arriving at repeatedly is that it is a resounding improvement in the lives of almost everyone. RMG factories em…

The way I answer people that say this is: It's not good enough. Yes, you can come up with all the explanation whatsoever you want to how this is a ~local maxima~ of happiness, but the fact is that we live on a much higher one with tons of disposable income and benefit from their work... so it s not a ~global maxima~ (not even close) so we should do better. What can I say? I'm definitely more to the left than most peo…

No offense, but your comment is full of shit! I really doubt the person who you responded to is a "Grown-ass white men getting paid to develop digital toys justifying to themselves why the situation for 9 year old sweatshop workers is good enough"

You sound to me like fashionista looking at a bum and lamenting that he doesn't have an Armani suit (oh My!). Sure things aren't good enough around the world. It's easy to appear morally "superior", but quite frankly, it's a lot worse in other places. (Last I check, things were looking that great in Somalia either)

Bangladesh was part of Pakistan, and looking at the situation objectively they're in a much better position than Pakistan is. I'd rather have a corrupt government where people are outraged and talking about minimum wage than having to focus merely on survival. The place has one of the fastest growing economies in the world and while there are filthy rich people there and filthy poor too, the gap between the too has narrowed significantly over the last 20 years.

Believe it or not, it's the "start up" crowd who made a good bit of the difference in the third world. India has been transformed by the IT industry, and Bangladesh is well on it's way. There are those who bitch and moan and there are those who do something. And if one took their head out of their ass long enough to see reality for what it is, they would notice how much of this is article is sensationalism and how much is really about actually helping the poor and doing something. And yes, I do get to say something about it b/c I do spend a significant amount of time DOING something about it rather than just bitching.

Good luck getting all the bums Armani suits, those with some sense will hopefully continue to help in getting them food and shelter first.

Re: I got hired at a Bangladesh sweatshop. Meet my 9-year-old boss [video]

#54

Post by lemmsjid »

corresation wrote: post #34
RodericDay wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The way I answer people that say this is: It's not good enough. Yes, you can come up with all the explanation whatsoever you want to how this is a ~local maxima~ of happiness, but the fact is that we live on a much higher one with tons of disposable income and benefit from their work... so it s not a ~global maxima~ (not even close) so we should do better. What can I say? I'm definitely more to the left than most peo…

Your position is deeply irrational and unrealistic. It may give you some sense of moral comfort, but it has zero application to the real world, and is the fodder of a million asinine Facebook forwards. People aren't "justifying" anything, they're stating actual realities of the world. 30 years ago South Korea was the sweatshop of the world. Today it is an economic powerhouse with largely first world living conditions…

You're ignoring the fact of globalization. Corporations and their consumers are getting more and more sophisticated at targeting and exploiting the countries with the worst labor laws. Multi national corporations are getting more sophisticated at evading scenarios where particular host countries (i.e. post-industrial nations) attempt to curb their exploitation.

This is a real and scary problem. It is not without precedent--the horrors perpetuated by the unfettered corporation-states during the colonial era are an example of the results of 'self policing', which is too often society's answer to how corporations should be regulated.

This makes for a situation that is worse than that faced by the first rounds of Industrial Revolution countries, for labor movements have little power when economic benefits actively bypass countries with more regulations and flow to the most corrupt and exploitation-friendly countries.

Perhaps we cannot (yet) create a utopia where every human who is born has a healthy and labor-light life. But we can refuse to accept the 'actual realities' and try to prevent scenarios where wealth is distributed to the exploiters and not the exploitees.

Re: I got hired at a Bangladesh sweatshop. Meet my 9-year-old boss [video]

#55

Post by tinco »

brador wrote: post #14
invalidOrTaken wrote: post #12

I was wondering why, to put it bluntly, Bangladesh sucks so much. This may shed some light: "Corruption in Bangladesh has been a continuing problem with the country being ranked as the most corrupt country for the year 2005 in the list published by Transparency International." http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption_in_Bangladesh

Corruption causes a disproportionate wealth disparity, it's one of the methods used to detect it. Works especially well within a country to identify more or less corrupt states. One argument is corruptions leads to reduced actual investment in infrastructure, roads, schools, things which increase a regions wealth, making corrupt areas show up pretty clearly on a map.

Why would someone downvote this comment?

Re: I got hired at a Bangladesh sweatshop. Meet my 9-year-old boss [video]

#56

Post by RodericDay »

RodericDay wrote: post #24
L_Rahman wrote: post #16

As someone who's spent his life roughly equally split across Bangladesh and America, I thought I'd provide some perspective. The questions I ask myself about this situation are: 1. Are the lives of the people who work in these factories better or worse as a result of these jobs existing? The answer I end up arriving at repeatedly is that it is a resounding improvement in the lives of almost everyone. RMG factories em…

The way I answer people that say this is: It's not good enough. Yes, you can come up with all the explanation whatsoever you want to how this is a ~local maxima~ of happiness, but the fact is that we live on a much higher one with tons of disposable income and benefit from their work... so it s not a ~global maxima~ (not even close) so we should do better. What can I say? I'm definitely more to the left than most peo…

I'm going to reply to my own comment since the reply is brief and general:

There's little wrong with Rahman's post in general. There's plenty wrong with the psychological mechanics that led it to quietly bubble to the top. Many people rightly see it as an "authentic" shield or cover for their own apathy.  Hurl "slacktivism" my way, I'll call you a Randroid or something (I'm not feeling very inspired). Ultimately via this message board all we can do is expose the kernel of our philosophies. Mine is that all wealthy people that react to a story of strife by seeking a reassuring explanation to carry on about their business (ie: the silent upvoters) are probably bad people in the only meaningful sense of the word: selfish and reactionary.

Keep explaining to me how this is the best of all feasible worlds and how your privileged position in it isn't clouding your objective economical understanding of things. Keep telling me about political correctness and "outrage tourism" as obstacles to Bangladesh's rational child labor economic success story in the making- they could be as happy and equal as South Koreans and Americans one day!

I'm just a young cloudy-headed incipient leftist, what do I know?

Re: I got hired at a Bangladesh sweatshop. Meet my 9-year-old boss [video]

#57

Post by Natsu »

beering wrote: post #30
RodericDay wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The way I answer people that say this is: It's not good enough. Yes, you can come up with all the explanation whatsoever you want to how this is a ~local maxima~ of happiness, but the fact is that we live on a much higher one with tons of disposable income and benefit from their work... so it s not a ~global maxima~ (not even close) so we should do better. What can I say? I'm definitely more to the left than most peo…

No, this is just your angry knee-jerk reaction so you can feel good about taking the moral high-ground, and you're scrambling to find the negative in every comment. The comment you're replying is a detailed comment that also states that there should be more done to improve working conditions and wages. Your comment is a rant about how we're a bunch of "grown-ass white men" (thanks for assuming things about me) who ba…

Have you ever worked in a factory? I used to. They squeeze you as hard as they can, constantly. Most of the people have no leverage to push back. While having money is better than having none, that doesn't mean everything is ok and you can just ignore the way the workers get abused.

In the US, you can push back at things like unsafe conditions with threats of OSHA. I doubt there's any such thing in Bangladesh, but it would be a good start.

Having a job is great, but they should be required to provide reasonable working conditions. And even in the USA, they will do the absolute minimum unless pushed.

Source: I have worked 16-hour shifts in a US factory that was over 100F, sometimes unable to get lunch or bathroom breaks. I now work a normal office job and laugh at the very notion of comparing even a 100-hour week doing this to a 70-hour week doing that.

Re: I got hired at a Bangladesh sweatshop. Meet my 9-year-old boss [video]

#58

Post by alive-or-not »

jvm wrote: post #35

Sometimes I think westerners just can't wrap their heads around just how poor Bangladesh is. Their GDP per capita: $2000, adjusted for living costs (PPP). Please, everyone, try to wrap your head around that number. That means a totally equal distribution of resources would give everyone $2000 a year. GDP counts all money spent on everything, so factory safety compliance costs would come out of that $2000. Consider Me…

Measuring economic potential in PPP is like measuring software functionality in lines of code. The basic question is does a country produce enough food to feed itself. If that's the case it can grow an industry slowly with respect to human lives, etc. If not IMHO there are still better solutions than building sweatshops.

Re: I got hired at a Bangladesh sweatshop. Meet my 9-year-old boss [video]

#59

Post by RodericDay »

3825 wrote: post #48
corresation wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your position is deeply irrational and unrealistic. It may give you some sense of moral comfort, but it has zero application to the real world, and is the fodder of a million asinine Facebook forwards. People aren't "justifying" anything, they're stating actual realities of the world. 30 years ago South Korea was the sweatshop of the world. Today it is an economic powerhouse with largely first world living conditions…

> Countries don't just skip that stage in their evolution, short of some mythical utopia project, however much we might like to think they can. However, countries cannot simply follow other countries' recipes for "success". Unbridled optimism hurts. Economic development (not to be confused with economic growth) is not an inevitable process. There are many pitfalls and it is a constant effort to stay on the path towar…

Ha-Joon Chang's "Bad Samaritans" is interesting in this regard. Accessible, too.

Re: I got hired at a Bangladesh sweatshop. Meet my 9-year-old boss [video]

#60

Post by lemmsjid »

tptacek wrote: post #40
dragonwriter wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your argument assumes that distribution of wealth has no effect on economic growth -- e.g., that distribution changes are zero-sum not only over the immediate term but over the long term as well. I'd expect the propensity to spend money within the domestic economy to be higher at the lower end of the distribution and lower and the higher end, so I'd expect downward redistribution to, ceteris paribus , increase the do…

You might be taking his point too literally. Another way to look at it is, if the owners of factories in Bangladesh were maximally generous and civic-minded, how much could they improve the lives of garment workers? Is the answer "not very much"?

Just taking the details from the original article, the answer is probably 'quite a bit', and probably without a massive economic impact:

* Windows

* Air conditioning

* Chairs (!!)

* Fewer hours and more breaks

* Disability and health benefits

That's a baseline of civilized-ness.

In fact, the act of purchasing the labor to install those things would also stimulate the economy.

The real answer to why the above don't exist is not economics, it's, "Because we don't have to do that." And worse (and this is on the conscience of 'first world' peoples), "Because it will marginally increase the cost of the goods, thus causing corporations to purchase from other countries without such protections."

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