Because it needs to be said • Hacker News Board

Re: Because it needs to be said

#441

Post by Confusion » Sat, Oct 12, 2013, 2:54 PM UTC

pearjuice wrote: post #257

Confusion wrote: post #118

I think there's a deeper cultural problem here: that the behavior of Joe had that much of an impact on Justine's life in the first place. There are women that would experience the same thing, but would not retreat into themselves in this extreme way. There are even women that would shrug it off. However, the response of Justine matches ancient societal expectations: if a woman has been violated, she loses all value.…

>walls of text everywhere trying to examine the situation and blame those involved You guys have to deal with it that she voluntarily lied down on a bar, induced by alcohol with other men around her and OFFERED her body to be licked. In which universe did she saw an expected outcome of not being approached with a sexual tone? They were drinking the entire night and all those geeky guys normally filled with anxiety co…

> She must have at least expected something, no?

No. A body shot is not an invitation for anything. A body shot taken from a girl with a boyfriend is not an invitation for anything. A body shot taken from a girl with a boyfriend, while hanging out in a bar with 'geeky guys' that just 'loosened up' is not an invitation for anything. If you think it is, you have a problem.

To answer your question again: no. Just no. No, no, no, NOOOOOOO!

I was talking about societal expectations earlier. I don't know what subculture you belong to, but it seems one that goes against the grain on this. And we have the law on our side.

Re: Because it needs to be said

#442

Post by chris_wot » Sat, Oct 12, 2013, 2:58 PM UTC

fingerfood wrote: post #419

gregd wrote: post #382

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'll oblige you with a response. This wasn't just "any contact". Did you read where he jammed his tongue down her throat? Did you read where he groped her ass? Did you read the part about penetrating her with his finger? Quit trying to frame this as just "any contact" because it wasn't.

> Did you read where he jammed his tongue down her throat? No. > Did you read where he groped her ass? Yes. > Did you read the part about penetrating her with his finger? No. Quit trying to sensationalize the story.

Try reading. Here is the text you somehow entirely issued:

Following the shot:

- Joe began to start rubbing my back and kissing my forehead (let me say this is not uncommon behavior between me and men I consider close friends. I have a close relationship with a lot of my former EdgeCase coworkers)

- Joe then put his hands down the back of my pants, yes, I wear a thong and thus he began grabbing my ass.

- Joe then started kissing me, forcibly with his tongue. I was not reciprocating.

- Joe began to put his hand down the front of my pants and finger me. I was a deer in headlights staring into the eyes of the two male bartenders hoping someone would help me.

Re: Because it needs to be said

#443

Post by chris_wot » Sat, Oct 12, 2013, 3:00 PM UTC

fingerfood wrote: post #434

gregd wrote: post #430

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So on top of a lack of reading comprehension, we have people blaming the victim ? Is it any wonder women find it hard to exist in the tech world?

You exaggerated with 1. 2 was explicitly stated. For 3, fingering does not imply penetration. What was that again about reading comprehension? Are you implying that I blamed the victim? What was that again about reading comprehension?

He stuck his hand down the front of her pants and started fingering her. That is penetration. I don't see how you could interpret it differently.

He didn't exaggerate about him forcibly sticking his tongue down her throat. That's what she wrote. You clearly do have a reading comprehension problem!

Re: Because it needs to be said

#444

Post by exit » Sat, Oct 12, 2013, 3:02 PM UTC

steveklabnik wrote: post #153

pearjuice wrote: post #137

So she voluntarily lied down on a bar with her and men around her intoxicated by alcohol, hormones amplified and expecting nothing out of the usual to happen? Get real, please. Of course it is horrible but don't make it look like it was unexpected.

I don't know about you, but I do not want to live in a society where women cannot go to a bar without an expectation of being sexually assaulted. Sounds like a bug.

can you acknowledge that pearjuice opened with "voluntarily lied down on a bar" (as part of agreeing to someone drinking alcohol out of her navel), and not simply "go to a bar"?

that's some fox news level intellectual dishonesty

Re: Because it needs to be said

#445

Post by gregd » Sat, Oct 12, 2013, 3:02 PM UTC

chris_wot wrote: post #438

theorique wrote: post #420

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No man has ever touched the rear of any female by first asking bluntly, "Is it alright if I touch your butt?". No woman has ever told a man, "I would now like you to touch my butt." While I agree with you that this is less common than communicating through body language, it sounds like a great exaggeration to say "No man" or "No woman" .

I keep coming back to the fact that the one doing the groping was the boss . Let's be very clear here - if you have anyone who you are managing, then you need to take care not to get drunk and horny around them, you must certainly never initiate a sexual relationship of any sort with them unless you first take steps to ensure that any power imbalance is removed (this is almost impossible), and you should take care ne…

This.

lawnchair_larry says, "So this man, a drunk, sexual being, who was not holding someone against their will or being violent, kept testing his boundaries and not receiving any indication that he had crossed a line." The mere fact that Justine was a subordinate was already a line Joe crossed.

I would also argue that this subordinate relationship was akin to "holding someone against their will".

Re: Because it needs to be said

#446

Post by DanBC » Sat, Oct 12, 2013, 3:02 PM UTC

Confusion wrote: post #437

PhasmaFelis wrote: post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This comes dangerously close to victim-blaming. Let me tell you that what Justine is feeling is absolutely not some social construct built exclusively on archaic misogyny. I have known more than one gay man who was raped and felt exactly the same way. You might consider that at least some of the women who appear to deal better with being assaulted are actually just putting on a brave front to avoid being pitied and c…

My intention was society-blaming, not victim-blaming. See elsewhere in this thread for my response to that point. Bringing up that men can also be raped and will feel 'the exact same way' is a good point, but I believe a red herring. A central point of my argument is that all people do not feel 'the same way'. It's exactly the fact that some people feel differently that makes clear that the consequences for Justine's…

People react differently to difficult events.

Some children who are abused recover quickly. Others are messed up for many many years.

We agree so far.

But so what? Are you suggesting that she is wrong to feel so distraught? Or that society is doing something to encourage her to feel this distraught?

Because from I read I see a lot of society blaming her for what happened and telling her to get over it.

Re: Because it needs to be said

#447

Post by Nimi » Sat, Oct 12, 2013, 3:06 PM UTC

chris_wot wrote: post #438

theorique wrote: post #420

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No man has ever touched the rear of any female by first asking bluntly, "Is it alright if I touch your butt?". No woman has ever told a man, "I would now like you to touch my butt." While I agree with you that this is less common than communicating through body language, it sounds like a great exaggeration to say "No man" or "No woman" .

I keep coming back to the fact that the one doing the groping was the boss . Let's be very clear here - if you have anyone who you are managing, then you need to take care not to get drunk and horny around them, you must certainly never initiate a sexual relationship of any sort with them unless you first take steps to ensure that any power imbalance is removed (this is almost impossible), and you should take care ne…

Completely agree. Also, we don't need to be very clear here - that's what sexual harassment laws are for. This isn't (only) a norm, this is a law, and although IANAL, it sounds like she has grounds to sue. Not only was the "wandering hands" inappropriate, pressuring her into doing a body shot was inappropriate as well.

The fact that the boss was drunk is a mitigating factor, not a grab-your-subordinates-ass-free card. I'm willing to assume he isn't a predator but a regular Joe who got drunk and made a mistake, but that doesn't absolve him of guilt.

Re: Because it needs to be said

#448

Post by Perseids » Sat, Oct 12, 2013, 3:07 PM UTC

wilkie wrote: post #228

jimzvz wrote: post #207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Both of the witnesses' testimonies seem to be subjective: "It was getting creepy, but Justine didn't move, or slap him. She was laughing..."[1]; "The executive's posture and actions aggressive; "no" was not a possibility."[2] Their stories also don't corroborate: "Fast forward to (from what I remember), around 1am. "[1]; "It was slightly before midnight..."[2] I think it is good that there are witnesses but it is not…

I'd say 0 blog posts doesn't constitute a very good defense. But it is interesting we will still give him this huge benefit of the doubt.

Some people live their lives online, others don't.

I won't comment on how much benefit of the doubt he deserves, but whether he defends himself on the internet or not should be totally irrelevant to that decision. 99.9% of us are by-standers who have no right to demand any justifications from any participants.

Re: Because it needs to be said

#449

Post by Confusion » Sat, Oct 12, 2013, 3:07 PM UTC

hrvbr wrote: post #218

Confusion wrote: post #118

I think there's a deeper cultural problem here: that the behavior of Joe had that much of an impact on Justine's life in the first place. There are women that would experience the same thing, but would not retreat into themselves in this extreme way. There are even women that would shrug it off. However, the response of Justine matches ancient societal expectations: if a woman has been violated, she loses all value.…

Yes, my first impression is that she's very fragile and passive. "Assault" is a too strong word if the guy let her go when she left for a smoke. And why didn't she punch the aggressor? Friends can be punched too. Saying "no" isn't enough to claim she resisted. If someone uses his physical force against us, we're not supposed to just say "please stop" as if the guy were respectful enough to obey. And she went back to…

Ideally we'd have a world in which everything happened in the same way up until the moment he french-kissed her. Then she would indeed have punched him and said "you crossed the line". He would say "sorry, my alcohol-infused mind judged the situation wrongly, I should not have done that and will not do it next time". In this ideal world, he'd mean that. Everyone would accept the miscalculation and everyone would get on with their lives, without anyone holding anything against anyone else.

You know why the world isn't like that? Because of beliefs and expectations.

You are judging this situation in the abstract and in hindsight. That is pointless and leads to callous conclusions that do not do justice to the complexity of these situations. It lacks empathy and respect for the complexity of the situation and differences between people. Try to imagine the scene, the days leading up to it, put yourself in the shoes of a woman, imagine the beliefs she has about how she should behave, how others will behave, about what is expected of her. The situation becomes complex, muddy: so many variables to consider! As someone else said: put yourself in a gay bar, with a score of gay colleagues, including your boss, and this happens to you. What if you worked in a larger company? What if the company was in bad weather and perhaps people need to be let go? So many variables!

Re: Because it needs to be said

#450

Post by lawnchair_larry » Sat, Oct 12, 2013, 3:11 PM UTC

gregd wrote: post #445

chris_wot wrote: post #438

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I keep coming back to the fact that the one doing the groping was the boss . Let's be very clear here - if you have anyone who you are managing, then you need to take care not to get drunk and horny around them, you must certainly never initiate a sexual relationship of any sort with them unless you first take steps to ensure that any power imbalance is removed (this is almost impossible), and you should take care ne…

This. lawnchair_larry says, "So this man, a drunk, sexual being, who was not holding someone against their will or being violent, kept testing his boundaries and not receiving any indication that he had crossed a line." The mere fact that Justine was a subordinate was already a line Joe crossed. I would also argue that this subordinate relationship was akin to "holding someone against their will".

I can't wait to see you guys give that lecture to Sergey Brin.

This stuff happens.

Personally I'm going to call Sergey and Amanda "Probably not a great idea", rather than your implied suggestion of "Sergey is guilty of sexual assault and is holding her against her will". But we can agree to disagree.