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Because it needs to be said

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Re: Because it needs to be said

#291

Post by justin66 »

jimzvz wrote: post #260
justin66 wrote: post #226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Testimony from a witness is always subjective, and this isn't a criminal trial. Given the amount of alcohol consumed I expect that the more detailed an account one demanded of Justine or some of the others, the less accurate it would be. That doesn't lead to some kind of Rashomon outcome where we'll never know the nature of what happened. That 1am / midnight shit... really?

"Testimony from a witness is always subjective..." I guess what i am trying to say is that they are drawing conclusions of what they saw, not just stating the facts of what they saw. "...this isn't a criminal trial" This is my point, we have no right to judge his guilt or innocence without a proper investigation and a trial based on this investigation. "That 1am / midnight shit... really?" I think it just shows that…

> we have no right to judge his guilt or innocence

We have no real standing to judge, no need to judge, but I have the right to do whatever I want, thank you. :)

> because anything could have happened or not happened

This is a little silly if read literally. I think you can tease out a couple of things that very certainly happened by reading the three available accounts.

> Trial by social media is not okay.

So much could be said about that topic. It's fairly horrifying in some instances. On the other hand, if this was cathartic or necessary for this woman, good for her.

Re: Because it needs to be said

#292

Post by steveklabnik »

pearjuice wrote: post #240
steveklabnik wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know about you, but I do not want to live in a society where women cannot go to a bar without an expectation of being sexually assaulted. Sounds like a bug.

In the society I breathe daily, women generally do not get sexually assaulted when they go to a bar (I don't know the statistics). However, I quote: "At some point, it was suggested that I do a body shot. I’ve never done one in my life but at the insistence of many people, attendees and bartenders I decided to lay on the bar." this is an invitation to sexual behavior. "A body shot is a shot of alcohol (such as tequil…

Consent to a body shot is consent to a body shot. Let's not even bring up the coercive aspect here.

Consent to a body shot is not consent to sex afterward.

Re: Because it needs to be said

#293

Post by wilkie »

brazzy wrote: post #287
erikpukinskis wrote: post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And why didn't she punch the aggressor? She was in shock. > Saying "no" isn't enough to claim she resisted. Why does it matter if she resisted? Is it not rape if you don't resist?

> Is it not rape if you don't resist? It's not rape if the other person has no way of telling that you want them to stop.

This would condone drugging your victim and is obviously and dangerously wrong.

Re: Because it needs to be said

#294

Post by makomk »

steveklabnik wrote: post #99
hawkharris wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

steveklabnik, When someone publishes your name in a blog post concerning sexual assault, scores of people harass you in comments, emails and sometimes phone calls. They take it into their own hands to administer justice. You become concerned that employers, friends and family members will see the accusation if they search for your name. So, if you're angry at someone, you can achieve a form of vigilante justice by pu…

Those who have been long-time HN news commentators may remember that I myself was on the receiving end of a Hacker News and Reddit 'lynch mob' for a mistake I made. It was terrible for me. Yet, I also made someone else feel terrible. Mistakes get made. I have to deal with remembering that for the rest of my life. I think about it often. Yet, equivocating "harass you in comments, emails, and sometimes phone calls" wit…

> Yet, equivocating "harass you in comments, emails, and sometimes phone calls" with being sexually assaulted is... yeah.

Except if the person being harassed is female, in which case of course they're equivalent and you're a rape apologist if you disagree.

Re: Because it needs to be said

#295

Post by cefarix »

anu_gupta wrote: post #255
cefarix wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Religion and alcohol are not the same. Are trying to say that religion is like a rapist? But even if I continue with your horribly broken and anti-religionist analogy, I could say: I don't bring religion into my work/meetings so why bring alcohol into it?

Then why mention your religion here? How is it in any way relevant?

Umm, because that's the reason for me abstaining from alcohol. I made that quite clear when I started my sentence with "As a Muslim".

Re: Because it needs to be said

#296

Post by wilkie »

honzzz wrote: post #283
wilkie wrote: post #279

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you haven't, in a soft voice, in a comfortable place, in a responsible way ever asked someone if they would like help taking off their pants... you are missing out. It's not that hard. Really. There are lots of reasonable questions that also act as good communication that I really don't want to teach you. Hey! There's a good question to ask next time!

Apples and oranges. It's one thing to ask because you feel like it. It's another thing to have to ask because it's mandatory.

"because you feel like it" ... this is a terrible thing to conclude. Let's just all 'feel like' getting consent, alright?

Re: Because it needs to be said

#297

Post by itchitawa »

abrimo wrote: post #198
Confusion wrote: post #118

I think there's a deeper cultural problem here: that the behavior of Joe had that much of an impact on Justine's life in the first place. There are women that would experience the same thing, but would not retreat into themselves in this extreme way. There are even women that would shrug it off. However, the response of Justine matches ancient societal expectations: if a woman has been violated, she loses all value.…

You're trying to blame the victim, which is troublingly common when someone has been raped or sexually harassed but it is never the right response. It is traumatising when these things happen, it is personally demeaning and it is never acceptable. Justine is brave for coming forward and we should encourage everyone in a similar situation to do the same and support them when they do. The deeper cultural problem here i…

We blame the victim all the time. Many alcoholic, drunk driver, bad-at-their-job people would rather not be like that but they're suffering some kind of severe emotional trouble and don't have the willpower to overcome it, much like this girl. They still get fired and charged with DUI regardless.

Re: Because it needs to be said

#298

Post by bowlofpetunias »

Confusion wrote: post #118

I think there's a deeper cultural problem here: that the behavior of Joe had that much of an impact on Justine's life in the first place. There are women that would experience the same thing, but would not retreat into themselves in this extreme way. There are even women that would shrug it off. However, the response of Justine matches ancient societal expectations: if a woman has been violated, she loses all value.…

Although I respect the point you're trying to make, it's only a part of the problem, by far not the entire problem.

And what I find borderline offensive is that you completely ignore the fact that the company pretty much swept the whole incident under the rug.

This in my opinion has had a much more immediate effect on the victim's sense of self worth than any deeper cultural issue.

Basically she was given to believe that what happened to her wasn't that big a deal, and since she clearly experienced it very differently, indirectly she was told she didn't have much value.

Re: Because it needs to be said

#299

Post by chris_wot »

brazzy wrote: post #290
chris_wot wrote: post #253

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then you would be wrong. Never.

Then you have a rather broad definition of "explicitly asking for consent", or very strange relationships.

Either you are trolling me, or you are judging me (what a strange and pitiable man!), or you have no idea what you are talking about. Given you know nothing about me, I'd say a bit of each.

Re: Because it needs to be said

#300

Post by malandrew »

throwaway86 wrote: post #93
hawkharris wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's right. I didn't mean to imply that citizens can initiate it on their own, but the author should at least try to press charges. The definition of sexual assault / rape varies by state. In any case, I don't think vigilante justice by blog post is an appropriate solution.

And yet frighteningly effective; here's an anecdote that includes a thought exercise to consider, and let me preface the thought exercise by making clear that I am not accusing anyone of lying in the situation linked here and intentionally have no opinion on it, for reasons that shall become clear. (In fact, I wish I hadn't read it.) Let's introduce Bob (not his real name). Bob is a mid-level engineering manager. Sin…

    Imagine sharing a name with the accused, even! My mom just 
    got denied an apartment because a woman of a different 
    race shares her name and has a felony conviction. And 
    that's a government system, not a social network.
Strangely, I can completely relate because something like this happened tonight. This evening I checked my Twitter mentions and came across this tweet with a racist remark and a hyphen and my twitter handle at the end, so it appeared as if he was quoting me:

https://twitter.com/pianoman265/status/387725741573799936

I was like "WTF?" because I don't know the guy who tweeted it and while perusing his followers list I realized what happened. He has a friend who is also named Andrew J de Andrade, but uses a different handle, @ajayyd, which is totally odd because there are probably only a half dozen or so Andrew de Andrade's in the world.

https://twitter.com/ajayyyd

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