Because it needs to be said • Hacker News Board

Re: Because it needs to be said

#271

Post by chris_wot » Sat, Oct 12, 2013, 10:45 AM UTC

anu_gupta wrote: post #255

cefarix wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Religion and alcohol are not the same. Are trying to say that religion is like a rapist? But even if I continue with your horribly broken and anti-religionist analogy, I could say: I don't bring religion into my work/meetings so why bring alcohol into it?

Then why mention your religion here? How is it in any way relevant?

Because, as a Muslim, I assume he doesn't drink. He was asking a fairly legitimate question, which is why is alcohol so closely associated with the tech scene?

My answer to him is that alcohol often helps folks loosen up. It's great, and fun, but only when you take it in reasonable moderation.

Re: Because it needs to be said

#272

Post by malandrew » Sat, Oct 12, 2013, 10:45 AM UTC

PhasmaFelis wrote: post #196

conformal wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

posting your personal account of someone's crimes against you in a blog is not a fair or reasonable way to deal with what is clearly a very serious matter. it sounds like what happened was awful and these types of incidents are common in many predominantly male professions, e.g. law, finance. i was recently seriously harassed and more-or-less sexually assaulted by an acquaintance's wife at a wedding in a swimming poo…

"Women who are assaulted should keep quiet about it because I can't tell if they're lying or not." Is that about right? Instead of saying she shouldn't post because "it could be false," how about you recognize that she knows whether it's true or not? For God's sake, the fact that some people are liars does not mean that truth-tellers should keep their mouths shut.

I don't know about you but I'm a believer in innocent until proven guilty. In fact, I really don't care about the gender of the actors in this story at all. Every story has three sides, my side, your side and the facts. Right now, we have a blog post that describe a retroactive account of what happened to the author a long time ago and all the misfortunes of their life since then, attributed to that one incident long ago. This is hardly a balanced account. We don't have the side of the counter-party to this incident nor do we have eye witness accounts of what happened. So insofar as you, I and the rest of the Internet are concerned, none of us have any business passing judgement on the author, the counter-party or those present at the incident. As such I'd say, that the author shouldn't post this publicly, unless they are open to and comfortable with the idea that the counter-party and all others involved may now post additional details about what happened that evening in an effort to help us, the audience, ascertain the facts. That is hardly the path towards psychological healing.

I for one am pretty certain that there are elements of truthiness and untruthiness in the original posting. I'd expect similar elements of truthiness and untruthiness in a rebuttal by the counter-party as well. Both were drinking and both will be advocates of their recollection of what happened. Such is the nature of points of view and interpretation of past events

Re: Because it needs to be said

#273

Post by klepra » Sat, Oct 12, 2013, 10:45 AM UTC

ddorian43 wrote: post #116

milesf wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, this is not the community I have loved and been a part of for 8 years. This kind of behaviour - assault, companies covering up the matter, bullying - is NOT acceptable! I will stand up, all 445 pounds of me, to anyone who thinks this matter should just go away. We need to talk about this, and minds need to be changed so that our community will improve.

You should consider loosing weight.

You don't know his height/bodyfat.

Re: Because it needs to be said

#274

Post by ishener » Sat, Oct 12, 2013, 10:47 AM UTC

Confusion wrote: post #118

I think there's a deeper cultural problem here: that the behavior of Joe had that much of an impact on Justine's life in the first place. There are women that would experience the same thing, but would not retreat into themselves in this extreme way. There are even women that would shrug it off. However, the response of Justine matches ancient societal expectations: if a woman has been violated, she loses all value.…

to everything bad that happens - the most beneficial thing to do is say "big deal, life moves on". On the case of sexual assault, it is politically incorrect to say it, and you will be considered a pro-rape chovinist ape.

Re: Because it needs to be said

#275

Post by anu_gupta » Sat, Oct 12, 2013, 10:48 AM UTC

chris_wot wrote: post #249

anu_gupta wrote: post #225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you've been very lucky, you could easily have ended up being trafficked or your body organs harvested. You clearly have a legitimate case, are you taking legal action against VMWare and everyone who could have seen your glass being topped up?

Who said anything about suing? My main concern is that at these events that responsible alcohol serving is happening. I've no idea why you have such an aggressive tone, but it was uncalled for.

I don't feel I'm being aggressive - can you clarify where you feel the aggression is, and I'll modify my language?

I'm concerned for you, and think that taking legal action against VMWare and the venue would send out a powerful message that glasses should not be topped up. Or, if it's not a civil matter, did you consider reporting it to the police?

Re: Because it needs to be said

#276

Post by michh » Sat, Oct 12, 2013, 10:49 AM UTC

hrvbr wrote: post #218

Confusion wrote: post #118

I think there's a deeper cultural problem here: that the behavior of Joe had that much of an impact on Justine's life in the first place. There are women that would experience the same thing, but would not retreat into themselves in this extreme way. There are even women that would shrug it off. However, the response of Justine matches ancient societal expectations: if a woman has been violated, she loses all value.…

Yes, my first impression is that she's very fragile and passive. "Assault" is a too strong word if the guy let her go when she left for a smoke. And why didn't she punch the aggressor? Friends can be punched too. Saying "no" isn't enough to claim she resisted. If someone uses his physical force against us, we're not supposed to just say "please stop" as if the guy were respectful enough to obey. And she went back to…

> Saying "no" isn't enough to claim she resisted.

Yes it is. In fact, not saying "yes" is enough.

Re: Because it needs to be said

#277

Post by throwaway9848 » Sat, Oct 12, 2013, 10:49 AM UTC

dylangs1030 wrote: post #237

throwaway9848 wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's keep some perspective. A second ship in one week carrying desperate, impoverished African migrants sunk of the coast of Italy yesterday. Many drowned. That is a tragedy. This is just one of those bad things that happens in life that one has to move on from. While I agree in helping others, people need to help themselves. Everything you wrote about the community needs to be done by the individual, too. Also, one…

Let's keep some perspective. A second ship in one week carrying desperate, impoverished African migrants sunk of the coast of Italy yesterday. Many drowned. That is a tragedy. You wrote this under a throwaway account, so I think you understand my point before I make it, but I'll say it anyway. A situation like this doesn't call for debates or intellectual analysis. Winning debate points when the subject is sexual ass…

I wrote a longer response, but I can pare it down to this:

This is just one side to a situation that I have no first person knowledge of.

Even taking everything she wrote at face value, I think she has made decisions that will make her own recovery more difficult than necessary.

Bad things happen to everyone. Often much worse than this. It is the nature of life, and underscores just how little we all really control. What we do control is how we handle ourselves in the face this adversity.

Language is always important. It is crystallized thought, and bad language creates bad thinking.

Re: Because it needs to be said

#278

Post by spatulon » Sat, Oct 12, 2013, 10:50 AM UTC

BenderV wrote: post #183

steveklabnik wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> without all informations Which more information would you need? There are two other people that corroborate her story, and Joe says he's not saying anything.

The defense of Joe ? The fact that he is not saying anything on the Internet is not a proof of anything... And again, I don't say that her story is false. Just that it could have been viewed in an another way from Joe pov. People seem eager to judge other people. Especially on the internet...

I've also noticed that people on the internet usually react to a woman's claim of assault or rape with skepticism and disbelief.

Even in this thread, there seems to be a lot of empathy for the alleged attacker -- whose story we haven't heard -- and far too little for the victim. We know what she says happened, we know it's been corroborated by two witnesses, and we know the resulting trauma it's caused her, so why are so many people feeling sorry him and not her?

Re: Because it needs to be said

#279

Post by wilkie » Sat, Oct 12, 2013, 10:52 AM UTC

honzzz wrote: post #262

erikpukinskis wrote: post #229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think think that's a great solution, but I think it will work best in conjunction with what I'm proposing. The trouble is that there will always be a wide range in people (it doesn't have to be men) in terms of empathy, respect, and self-control. Even if you succeed in totally changing the culture around empathy, there will still be individuals who are empathetically challenged, just based on physiology. What I'm s…

I hear what you are saying and it sound reasonable... but I just cannot imagine myself asking that question in that situation. Wine, candles, excitement of 'the first time with her' and tenderness... and suddenly I hear myself saying 'can I stick my hand into your panties?' Talk about a mood-killer. Please try to imagine it. If your proposal gets traction I will probably never have sex again. It's a good thing I do n…

If you haven't, in a soft voice, in a comfortable place, in a responsible way ever asked someone if they would like help taking off their pants... you are missing out. It's not that hard. Really. There are lots of reasonable questions that also act as good communication that I really don't want to teach you. Hey! There's a good question to ask next time!

Re: Because it needs to be said

#280

Post by jasonwatkinspdx » Sat, Oct 12, 2013, 10:56 AM UTC

chroma wrote: post #166

Confusion wrote: post #118

I think there's a deeper cultural problem here: that the behavior of Joe had that much of an impact on Justine's life in the first place. There are women that would experience the same thing, but would not retreat into themselves in this extreme way. There are even women that would shrug it off. However, the response of Justine matches ancient societal expectations: if a woman has been violated, she loses all value.…

This is a difficult point to make. I'm surprised you didn't use a throwaway account. I've been assaulted by peers. I've had drugs slipped into my drink. One time, someone put a gun to my head and robbed me. After these experiences, I had nightmares, phobias, and insecurities. But surprisingly quickly, I recovered. Without social expectations of permanent trauma, the mind seems to be quite resilient. Thank you for mak…

I'm glad that you've suffered no lasting harm, but please do not overgeneralize to a claim as strong as saying that without social expectations others would respond similarly, because this can lead to people thinking that those with persistent problems after an isolated trauma are how somehow perpetuating their own problems through their attitudes. This is contrary to everything we understand about how humans respond to stress and trauma on a lifetime scale, and in particular contradicts the glaringly strong evidence from the CDC's Adverse Childhood Experience dataset that lifelong resilience in the face of stress is dramatically reduced by early traumas.