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Because it needs to be said

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Re: Because it needs to be said

#101

Post by beams_of_light »

konstruktor wrote: post #31

We have a culture of alcohol being involved in most team interactions outside of work. Those mostly take place in the evening, a time when, usually, private socializing, including mate seeking behaviour, happens. That alone would be quite a fertile ground for sexual harassment, if you add a few females to a group mostly consisting of men. Then add companies where people work long hours and have little life outside of…

Agreed. Years ago, I might not have been able to sympathize with her very well, but I have daughters of my own now, and I cringe at the thoughts of things the future males in their lives will do. It's easy to see women as sex objects, but having daughters really opens your eyes to their humanity; that their hopes and dreams mean just at much as ours.

Re: Because it needs to be said

#102

Post by kingkilr »

fencepost wrote: post #94
kingkilr wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What about it?

At a recent PyCon a couple of attendees made a weak joke about forking a repository that came off as sexual humor (I don't know if it was intended that way or not). Someone was offended by it and tweeted a picture of them rather than approach the conference organizers. Things escalated from there. As I recall it, by the end of everything, the jokesters had been asked to leave the conference and subsequently lost thei…

This is inaccurate. The individuals making comments were not ejected from the conference, they were informed that their words were having effects they might not be intending, they apologized, and returned to the conference.

I can in no way speak for anyone's employer, but it's worth noting that only one of the individuals lost their job.

I currently serve as the co-chair for the PyCon Program Committee, and as a director of the Python Software Foundation.

Re: Because it needs to be said

#103

Post by sneak »

ck2 wrote: post #65
iMark wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You believe people should go to bars with the expectation they'll be sexually assaulted?

What part of "not her fault" was not clear? But I believe if you hang out with people who drink a lot, often, sooner or later you are going to regret being associated with them.

The problem is that ENTIRE PROFESSIONAL COMMUNITIES "drink a lot, often". Not hanging out is mutex with a top-notch career.

I go and drink one drink and then switch to soda. But don't pretend that it's only some subset of the US tech industry.

Re: Because it needs to be said

#104

Post by steveklabnik »

[deleted] wrote: post #88
erikpukinskis wrote: post #15

One thing we can all do: Start asking before you touch in situations where you know you don't have to. I know it's awkward. But the reason people like Joe think they can put their hands down someone's pants is because we don't have a cultural practice of "ask first". They see you put your arms around that friend of yours who doesn't mind at all, and they think "Ah, cool... so you can just sense if she's cool with it…

[deleted]

Consenting to a body shot does not mean you consent to being sexually assaulted afterwards.

Re: Because it needs to be said

#105

Post by sliverstorm »

I am fairly certain that the events that Monday in January ruined me for the rest of my life

Is this typical? I've read a fair amount of stories from rape victims, and yet here we are to understand this woman's life has come completely unhinged and ruined for good by something... I don't know, somewhat less dramatic than a rape. If I hadn't read the story of the event itself, I'd have honestly thought it was about a brutal, violent rape.

I realize I probably sound like a jerk, but as I've never had personal involvement with this sort of thing I have no first-hand experience, and after reading this story I suddenly find myself shocked & confused as I think of the other stories I have read in the past. All I can do is ask for input. Please treat this as an honest question.

Re: Because it needs to be said

#106

Post by ck2 »

sneak wrote: post #103
ck2 wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What part of "not her fault" was not clear? But I believe if you hang out with people who drink a lot, often, sooner or later you are going to regret being associated with them.

The problem is that ENTIRE PROFESSIONAL COMMUNITIES "drink a lot, often". Not hanging out is mutex with a top-notch career. I go and drink one drink and then switch to soda. But don't pretend that it's only some subset of the US tech industry.

I refuse to accept that as a norm.

And you already proved the exception by suggesting you can just drink soda and no-one thinks any less of you.

Re: Because it needs to be said

#107

Post by steveklabnik »

kenster07 wrote: post #95

The story is heart wrenching, but the fact is, it may not be true. Anyone can literally say anything they want about someone and the internet will believe it without a moment's hesitation. It is downright scary. If you were the accused and the story was contrived, you would not have much recourse.

There are two men, one of whom stopped it, who corroborate her story: http://theotherzach.com/writes/2013/10/9/events and http://blog.matt-darby.com/essays/i-am-the-other-developer

Re: Because it needs to be said

#108

Post by devonbarrett »

ryan-allen wrote: post #46
wilkie wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the painted lie that her company allowed him to make: http://objo.com/2013/01/31/funemployment/ This is the reality. I don't hold too much optimism that the police would somehow solve this problem considering the damage done and the lack of any support to go back to.

THERE WERE TWO WITNESSES. His blog post is irrelevant to his guilt or innocence based on a blog post of another individual. Two witnesses is pretty clear cut. It's called 'corroboration', you should look it up and learn something perhaps!

It was at the bar, so I would also assume there would be CCTV.

Re: Because it needs to be said

#110

Post by petercooper »

ddagradi wrote: post #86
konstruktor wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem with "ask first" is that it is a self-defeating behaviour in current culture: Touching is an integral part of flirting and also common in interactions that don't involve sexual or romantic interest. And the current social norm is to start with light touching at a non-intimate place, and see if the other person reciprocates. Doing so is associated with confidence. "Can I touch the outside of your arm?" wou…

"Ask first" works just fine when the question is "can I stick my hand down your pants?". It really isn't the social norm to do that without asking.

Agreed, and it's way beyond the social norm to do it at all in public and in front of other people(!) :-)

I can wrap my head around someone thinking a quick kiss in an informal setting without explicit permission could be brushed off, but sticking a hand down the pants of even one's significant other in a public context is way beyond any social norm I'm aware of except perhaps at an orgy.

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