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Because it needs to be said

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Re: Because it needs to be said

#81

Post by ddagradi »

ck2 wrote: post #76
steveklabnik wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, victims are often traumatized after an event like this, and it causes them to make poor decisions later. That doesn't invalidate the assault. Consent is consent.

I blame the boss for a whole bunch of things but where it gets to the point of getting drunk and then getting behind a wheel and killing me or my friends, that's where the victim turns into a criminal without forgiveness. Your level of unconditional forgiveness becomes an excuse that I cannot accept.

According to the post, she was punished by the law for that (DUI). What else are you asking for?

Re: Because it needs to be said

#82

Post by GeorgeOrr »

konstruktor wrote: post #31

We have a culture of alcohol being involved in most team interactions outside of work. Those mostly take place in the evening, a time when, usually, private socializing, including mate seeking behaviour, happens. That alone would be quite a fertile ground for sexual harassment, if you add a few females to a group mostly consisting of men. Then add companies where people work long hours and have little life outside of…

I really don't think it's about alcohol or about men and women working in close quarters for long hours.

This is about a small number of pigs that care more about their desire than any thought of consent or mutual interest. Real men, the vast majority, would never consider inflicting this sort of evil on another. Drunk or not. It's not about sex, it's about power and abuse.

Re: Because it needs to be said

#83

Post by steveklabnik »

DigitalJack wrote: post #61
ryan-allen wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

THERE WERE TWO WITNESSES. His blog post is irrelevant to his guilt or innocence based on a blog post of another individual. Two witnesses is pretty clear cut. It's called 'corroboration', you should look it up and learn something perhaps!

The problem is what did they witness? A girl doing a bodyshot, followed by the man who took the shot kissing her and getting hands on. In this post I don't see anything indicating she tried to reject these moves. I don't see how somebody could tell it was unwanted from a third person perspective.

> The executive's posture and actions aggressive; "no" was not a possibility. She was visibly upset and shut down. That's an understatement. I saw somebody trapped in a nightmare, in public. That freeze frame is burned into my brain.

http://theotherzach.com/writes/2013/10/9/events

Re: Because it needs to be said

#85

Post by johnchristopher »

GeorgeOrr wrote: post #75
sneak wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think a much more workable solution would be to collectively attempt to abandon the shitty American brand of alcohol culture that seems to be a fairly common contributing factor in a lot of these stories about rape and assault. Alcohol makes one stupid, not cool. I have no idea why it is held in such high esteem in the US tech industry.

The part of that culture that is, IMHO, the worst is the idea that alcohol is to blame for our behaviour. Pigs are going to be pigs. They don't get to say "but I was drunk" Real men don't have it in them to treat others they way pigs do - alcohol or no. I just don't blame the substance. Blame the man who thinks of his immediate satisfaction without regard to the cost he inflicts on others.

> Pigs are going to be pigs. They don't get to say "but I was drunk" Real men don't have it in them to treat others they way pigs do - alcohol or no.

You'd be surprised.

Of course, "real men" who know they turn into pigs when drinking choose not to drink.

Re: Because it needs to be said

#86

Post by ddagradi »

konstruktor wrote: post #66
erikpukinskis wrote: post #15

One thing we can all do: Start asking before you touch in situations where you know you don't have to. I know it's awkward. But the reason people like Joe think they can put their hands down someone's pants is because we don't have a cultural practice of "ask first". They see you put your arms around that friend of yours who doesn't mind at all, and they think "Ah, cool... so you can just sense if she's cool with it…

The problem with "ask first" is that it is a self-defeating behaviour in current culture: Touching is an integral part of flirting and also common in interactions that don't involve sexual or romantic interest. And the current social norm is to start with light touching at a non-intimate place, and see if the other person reciprocates. Doing so is associated with confidence. "Can I touch the outside of your arm?" wou…

"Ask first" works just fine when the question is "can I stick my hand down your pants?". It really isn't the social norm to do that without asking.

Re: Because it needs to be said

#87

Post by steveklabnik »

JakaJancar wrote: post #58

A genuine question: How can some people be so reflective and seem to understand their problems really well, yet still be completely paralyzed and unable to do anything about them?

The relevant psychological literature is on 'trauma.' I am not a psychologist, but traumatic effects certainly cause lots of problems. It's incredibly complex. Brains are hard.

Re: Because it needs to be said

#88

Post by [deleted] »

erikpukinskis wrote: post #15

One thing we can all do: Start asking before you touch in situations where you know you don't have to. I know it's awkward. But the reason people like Joe think they can put their hands down someone's pants is because we don't have a cultural practice of "ask first". They see you put your arms around that friend of yours who doesn't mind at all, and they think "Ah, cool... so you can just sense if she's cool with it…

[deleted]

Re: Because it needs to be said

#89

Post by GeorgeOrr »

DigitalJack wrote: post #61
ryan-allen wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

THERE WERE TWO WITNESSES. His blog post is irrelevant to his guilt or innocence based on a blog post of another individual. Two witnesses is pretty clear cut. It's called 'corroboration', you should look it up and learn something perhaps!

The problem is what did they witness? A girl doing a bodyshot, followed by the man who took the shot kissing her and getting hands on. In this post I don't see anything indicating she tried to reject these moves. I don't see how somebody could tell it was unwanted from a third person perspective.

By "getting hands on" to be clear you are referring to his fondling her backside and front. Just to be clear, what those witness saw was molestation in progress.

Thank god one of them gave her a chance to escape. Thank god there was one person not like you there.

Re: Because it needs to be said

#90

Post by barrkel »

steveklabnik wrote: post #56
hawkharris wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's right. I didn't mean to imply that citizens can initiate it on their own, but the author should at least try to press charges. The definition of sexual assault / rape varies by state. In any case, I don't think vigilante justice by blog post is an appropriate solution.

Can you explain to me how posting a factual account of a situation is 'vigilante justice'?

The post accuses someone by name with some fairly emotive acts. Enough to have repurcussions on the other person's life. That seems like an attempt at amateur justice to me. In my country, the post would be grounds for libel if she can't prove it in court.
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