Valve demonstrates Steam Controller [video] • Hacker News Board

Re: Valve demonstrates Steam Controller [video]

#71

Post by brymaster » Sat, Oct 12, 2013, 2:43 AM UTC

skizm wrote: post #9

purplelobster wrote: post #2

Looks like what I expected. When it comes to FPS games, it's difficult to know his skill level, but it's probably not something you'd use competitively. Many times better than an analog stick though, so I'd use it for casual gaming.

Yea, I can't remember where I saw it but i think they tried pitting top COD players from console vs PC and even with auto aim assist on PC player destroyed console players. Mouse is just too accurate of a pointing device compared to joysticks (physical or virtual).

This might be what you were remembering? http://games.slashdot.org/story/10/07/23/2127253/pc-gamers-t...

It also reminds me about how CS:GO was originally supposed to allow true cross-platform play (PC against console) but Valve scrapped that support because they couldn't work out a reasonable way to patch on consoles due to "patch scheduling" on PS3.

Re: Valve demonstrates Steam Controller [video]

#72

Post by grogenaut » Sat, Oct 12, 2013, 2:51 AM UTC

Basically we still don't know enough to know how good it's going to be. Having used the next gen controllers at PAX, it's going to very hard to be as good at they are at being a controller.

Valve's controller does seem to be a good 1/2 step for mouse/keyboard replacement, eg very good accuracy, but maybe not the best of all worlds. Also able to do controller based games but not quite as good as a real controller.

to me it's a sign that they hope to help developers support console versions by making a control system that will work well for games designed for mouse and keyboard, if not as well as a mouse and keyboard. But to be honest, standard controllers on games not designed for them are quite bad. Moving a "mouse" pointer replacement with a controller is not good. So I think it will be good in that regard. It'll also be better than a keyboard and have MUCH better support than a logitech controller for games that want controllers.

So I see it as a good middle ground. And I think this will allow game devs to support both more easily. It's not the tactic I would take to make games work on both, but I think it's a good approach even if it isn't going to be the best of either world.

However, if it IS as good as the next gen console controllers and it does better than them at mouse/keyboard then it's a big win.

Re: Valve demonstrates Steam Controller [video]

#73

Post by ChuckMcM » Sat, Oct 12, 2013, 3:19 AM UTC

bbx wrote: post #51

Valve's main objective was probably to replicate the keyboard/mouse combo rather than improve or alter the standard joystick gamepad (like the X360 Controller). In the end, it looks like a controller halfway between these 2 types of input. The main problem with a controller-based "mouse" (and it shows in the video) is that you control the cursor with only your thumb rather than your full hand gently set down on your…

That was my thought as well. Basically the mouse has a huge range of motion and you can very aggressively move it and execute commands with buttons while moving. That doesn't work on track pads or presumably on this demo yet. Moves that would be one mouse stroke from left corner to right corner, become three or four "strokes" of the touch pad. And if you make the touch pad sensitive that this is a single stroke, then fine movement is compromised.

I keep hoping for something like the nunchuck controller on the Wii where the nunchuk can keep track of its absolute coordinates and you then can do fine movement in the center of the box and large movement on the outer edges.

Re: Valve demonstrates Steam Controller [video]

#74

Post by haberman » Sat, Oct 12, 2013, 3:38 AM UTC

I have never been able to get good at using analog sticks with FPSs. I'm so bad at it that if the game doesn't have auto-aim, I basically can't enjoy the game because I am sucking so badly.

The problem for me is that the analog sticks are velocity-based; ie. you don't get to control the position directly, you can only control the first derivative of the position, the velocity. That means instead of just moving the controller where you want to go, you have to move in the direction you want to go and hold it there for just the right amount of time.

I'm amazed that so many people can do this so well, because no matter how much time I play I still suck at it. It just feels so clumsy.

So the idea of being able to use a handheld controller that isn't velocity-based really appeals to me, though I do worry a bit that the active area is so small.

Re: Valve demonstrates Steam Controller [video]

#75

Post by socillion » Sat, Oct 12, 2013, 3:45 AM UTC

bbx wrote: post #51

Valve's main objective was probably to replicate the keyboard/mouse combo rather than improve or alter the standard joystick gamepad (like the X360 Controller). In the end, it looks like a controller halfway between these 2 types of input. The main problem with a controller-based "mouse" (and it shows in the video) is that you control the cursor with only your thumb rather than your full hand gently set down on your…

There would be two disadvantages compared to traditional mouse-and-keyboard: 1) a low number of total possible bindings, and 2) a lower range of possible movements compared to a mouse.

1) is straightforward, if you don't have enough input buttons you're out of luck. A problem for games like SC2 and WoW.

2) this problem forces you to use acceleration for input, which is commonly accepted to ruin precision (reproducibility) because you lose the easy mapping between inches and pixels.

I'll use Team Fortress 2 (an FPS) as an example for this. First, if 180 degrees takes more than 1 swipe, the controls are effectively unusable. The demonstration indicates this may be the case.

You need to be able to flip 180 degrees to check your back, as well as make other large and fast movements like those required by rocket jumping. At the same time, you also need the ability to make very small aim adjustments. It's guaranteed that the trackpad will be weak somewhere along this variety of movements.

It's unsurprising that it will be a poor replacement for mouse and keyboard, but existing controllers have demonstrated that people are fine with sacrificing resolution of controls for other advantages like relative simplicity and easily playing with friends.

Re: Valve demonstrates Steam Controller [video]

#76

Post by n1kh1lp » Sat, Oct 12, 2013, 3:59 AM UTC

bbx wrote: post #51

Valve's main objective was probably to replicate the keyboard/mouse combo rather than improve or alter the standard joystick gamepad (like the X360 Controller). In the end, it looks like a controller halfway between these 2 types of input. The main problem with a controller-based "mouse" (and it shows in the video) is that you control the cursor with only your thumb rather than your full hand gently set down on your…

> "you control the cursor with only your thumb rather than your full hand gently set down on your desktop."

exactly! This doesn't look very ergonomic. I can't imagine playing for hours with this controller.

Re: Valve demonstrates Steam Controller [video]

#77

Post by vyrotek » Sat, Oct 12, 2013, 4:18 AM UTC

The biggest problem is not the controller itself but the expectation that people that use this will be able to compete at all with those using a keyboard & mouse. The only reason FPS games currently work on consoles is because everyone is essentially equally handicapped. Even a casual player using a mouse dominates versus game pads.

Re: Valve demonstrates Steam Controller [video]

#78

Post by jiggy2011 » Sat, Oct 12, 2013, 4:18 AM UTC

gfodor wrote: post #64

WalterSear wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course this is meant to compete with a mouse. It's intended to let people play mice based games, such as FPS and RTS with a controller. It's intended to take the gaming pc (and by, extension steam) out of the man-cave and into the living room to compete with consoles. This requires providing people with an ability for people to play FPS and RTS decently with a controller, rather than a mouse, or they are going to…

It's not competing with a mouse, it's competing with "a mouse and solitude in a man cave", since these are coupled together due to the fact a mouse can't be used in the living room practically. In other words, if this is close enough to the mousing experience to make the net experience of playing PC games in the living room better than the same experience with a mouse in solitude, it will be a hit.

The problem will be in multiplayer. Going online and being repeatedly destroyed by mouse players won't be much fun.

Also I guess difficulty in singleplayer games would have to take the control scheme into account.

Re: Valve demonstrates Steam Controller [video]

#79

Post by keeperofdakeys » Sat, Oct 12, 2013, 4:44 AM UTC

Steko wrote: post #67

bbx wrote: post #51

Valve's main objective was probably to replicate the keyboard/mouse combo rather than improve or alter the standard joystick gamepad (like the X360 Controller). In the end, it looks like a controller halfway between these 2 types of input. The main problem with a controller-based "mouse" (and it shows in the video) is that you control the cursor with only your thumb rather than your full hand gently set down on your…

"I guess we'll never obtain a perfect alternative to the mouse" Because Valve's first effort doesn't completely replace a mouse? That seems a bit defeatist. "control the cursor with only your thumb rather than your full hand " Control with the thumb vs hand isn't the problem so much as that thumbs are not pointy like mouse lasers. Valve should look at adding a tiny fingertip digitizer. Of course they are still lackin…

I really don't see why they would want to add motion input. In most situations I've seen it used, it has been little more than a gimmick.

Re: Valve demonstrates Steam Controller [video]

#80

Post by TheEskimo » Sat, Oct 12, 2013, 5:49 AM UTC

socillion wrote: post #75

bbx wrote: post #51

Valve's main objective was probably to replicate the keyboard/mouse combo rather than improve or alter the standard joystick gamepad (like the X360 Controller). In the end, it looks like a controller halfway between these 2 types of input. The main problem with a controller-based "mouse" (and it shows in the video) is that you control the cursor with only your thumb rather than your full hand gently set down on your…

There would be two disadvantages compared to traditional mouse-and-keyboard: 1) a low number of total possible bindings, and 2) a lower range of possible movements compared to a mouse. 1) is straightforward, if you don't have enough input buttons you're out of luck. A problem for games like SC2 and WoW. 2) this problem forces you to use acceleration for input, which is commonly accepted to ruin precision (reproducibi…

In regards to the 180 degree spin, this demonstration shows exactly the opposite of what you say. At about 1:34 (elevator in portal 2) he performs a 180 with a single swipe from left to right.