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America knows everything

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Re: America knows everything

#41

Post by colomon »

pudquick wrote: post #24

While I agree that this person was probably treated very poorly, I also want to point out that they were traveling for work purposes. In the United States, non-US citizens entering the country for work purposes are generally required to get a visa. There are a few (and very few at that) business exceptions to this process, as listed here: http://travel.state.gov/visa/temp/without/without_1990.html He stated that he w…

I don't understand the reason, but from what I've seen the US and Canadian rules on these things are explicitly set up to screw small musicians. Like getting a VISA to do a single gig in a bar or restaurant costing more than the venue would normally be paying the musicians: http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2013/08/29/canada-foreign-worke...

And I know our local (US) maritime music festival didn't bring in a Canadian duo the organizers love because of the expense of getting them a Visa to work here. (And when I later talked about it with the duo, they told me they now also have to deal with the IRS to play American shows!?)

Re: America knows everything

#42

Post by allochthon »

nisa wrote: post #33
pudquick wrote: post #24

While I agree that this person was probably treated very poorly, I also want to point out that they were traveling for work purposes. In the United States, non-US citizens entering the country for work purposes are generally required to get a visa. There are a few (and very few at that) business exceptions to this process, as listed here: http://travel.state.gov/visa/temp/without/without_1990.html He stated that he w…

I don't have knowledge about the US border and visa requirements and procedures. But even if he did made a mistake wouldn't it be easier to inform him before he enters the plane? And avoid interrogating him without letting him know what the problem was? The process he got ranks pretty high on the crazy paranoid side. I'm sure there are ways to solve the security and visa issues in a way that does not leave traumatic…

And such tacky behavior on the part of border security, if the description is accurate. It sounds like there had been a genuine misunderstanding.

Re: America knows everything

#43

Post by MichaelGG »

Key point:

"The result was that I was denied entry because I was on a business trip unannounced. The payment in the form of a warm meal at one of the shows in Nashville at a restaurant with ten tables is apparently illegal."

Well, yeah, sorta. If you come to perform a task and be compensated they might construe that as work. I'm not sure what he means by privacy violations - if his name is Googled, are there no results for his stage name? Did he have nothing in his items with his stage name? It seems odd to just assume CBP agents are doing something secret when this seems like public data.

I'm Canadian, and I was detained at the border as one CBP agent felt I needed a work visa (not just stating I'm there for business reasons) to represent my company at a tradeshow. (OTOH the unions at conference centers also agree that lifting a box or plugging in cables is work so...) Fortunately his supervisor disagreed.

Re: America knows everything

#44

Post by javajosh »

pudquick wrote: post #24

While I agree that this person was probably treated very poorly, I also want to point out that they were traveling for work purposes. In the United States, non-US citizens entering the country for work purposes are generally required to get a visa. There are a few (and very few at that) business exceptions to this process, as listed here: http://travel.state.gov/visa/temp/without/without_1990.html He stated that he w…

It's like saying about Rodney King, "well, our police are brutal, but after all he was speeding and resisting arrest." This kind of statement is a sophists trick, knowingly or not, to justify the unjustifiable.

I don't care what this guy "did", he shouldn't have been treated this way. If he broke the rules and we need to deport him, fine. Then do it. Don't strip search him, threaten him, go through his personal effects, harrass his friend, unjustly limit his ability to contact his people, and generally abuse someone who's trying to visit our shores who comes in peace.

The worst thing they should have done to him was force him to pay for a work visa and a "processing fee", and let him into the country.

Re: America knows everything

#45

Post by MichaelGG »

nisa wrote: post #33
pudquick wrote: post #24

While I agree that this person was probably treated very poorly, I also want to point out that they were traveling for work purposes. In the United States, non-US citizens entering the country for work purposes are generally required to get a visa. There are a few (and very few at that) business exceptions to this process, as listed here: http://travel.state.gov/visa/temp/without/without_1990.html He stated that he w…

I don't have knowledge about the US border and visa requirements and procedures. But even if he did made a mistake wouldn't it be easier to inform him before he enters the plane? And avoid interrogating him without letting him know what the problem was? The process he got ranks pretty high on the crazy paranoid side. I'm sure there are ways to solve the security and visa issues in a way that does not leave traumatic…

No, if they suspect you of lying, then of course they're not going to coach you on what's allowed so you can say the right thing. That makes no sense.

Their overall reaction seems way out of proportion here, I agree. But the general tactic of questioning someone seems sorta like the entire point of having these agents in the first place.

Re: America knows everything

#46

Post by RWeaver »

fleitz wrote: post #34

I feel bad for the guy, but having been across the US border a few times it's important that if you're travelling for anything but spending money in the US you'd better phone and find out if you need a work visa. Volunteering? VISA. Working for free? VISA. Might ask someone for change? VISA. Speaking at a conference? VISA. Having coffee with someone and may discuss business? VISA. Friend might buy you a beer? VISA. Y…

I bet the tourism companies inside the USA are over the moon with where this is going.

Re: America knows everything

#47

Post by mullingitover »

GauntletWizard wrote: post #14
Jd wrote: post #6

It's very hard to extrapolate from stories like this to know if the actual instance and intensity of abuses is increasing, or if reportage is increasing (i.e. landing on HN front page) because of folk's irritation with other aspects of the US government. For my money, TSA is right after HSA as far as FUBAR government agencies go. Seems like quality control is right in the shitter. As for solutions, I'd like to see a…

The TSA has nothing to do with this interrogation, as bad as they are; Customs and Border Patrol are the offenders, here. And this guy made a critical mistake: He announced his intent to "work" in the United States; i.e. he was going to play shows. This requires a Visa, even for nonprofit purposes, which is a silly law, but it is the law.

I find it very interesting that in the globalization of trade, capital is free to flow across borders without hassle. Labor, not so much.

Re: America knows everything

#48

Post by [deleted] »

catilac wrote: post #35
gnoway wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe, but the events in this article are bad enough on their own, there is no need to inject a racial element into the discussion.

No, I think there is a need. If the definition of what it is to be American is warped, specifically, that it takes more than citizenship to be welcomed home, then that should come into the discussion of these cases of mistreated foreigners.

[deleted]

Re: America knows everything

#49

Post by machrider »

jmduke wrote: post #31

America's border control system is so broken that it saddens me to see posts like this that reek of sensationalism (I mean, it's Vice ) and hide the fact that, you know, he didn't have a valid visa. I'm having trouble understanding what was so deplorable about this story besides the reprehensible treatment by the officials (which, again, seems exaggerated)? Am I misreading the story or is refusal to enter the country…

Do you need a visa to visit the US for a couple weeks? He did have a passport.

Re: America knows everything

#50

Post by MichaelGG »

javajosh wrote: post #44
pudquick wrote: post #24

While I agree that this person was probably treated very poorly, I also want to point out that they were traveling for work purposes. In the United States, non-US citizens entering the country for work purposes are generally required to get a visa. There are a few (and very few at that) business exceptions to this process, as listed here: http://travel.state.gov/visa/temp/without/without_1990.html He stated that he w…

It's like saying about Rodney King, "well, our police are brutal, but after all he was speeding and resisting arrest." This kind of statement is a sophists trick, knowingly or not, to justify the unjustifiable. I don't care what this guy "did", he shouldn't have been treated this way. If he broke the rules and we need to deport him, fine. Then do it. Don't strip search him, threaten him, go through his personal effec…

While I agree on the overreaction, no, it's not just about paying for a work visa. It's determining eligibility and whatnot. He even admits that it's "very difficult" to get such a visa. Certainly you don't want to encourage people to attempt entry illegally (under false premises) with the fallback of paying for the visa.

Going through his "personal effects" is one way to determine is someone is lying. Strip search seems ridiculous unless they felt he was smuggling something.

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