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If Java Is Dying, It Sure Looks Awfully Healthy

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Re: If Java Is Dying, It Sure Looks Awfully Healthy

#211

Post by [deleted] »

fleitz wrote: post #8
dmk23 wrote: post #3

Any talk of Java "dying" is just nonsensical Java hands down is the most obvious choice for any applications that require performance, yet are too complicated to write and support in C/C++/other lower level languages. Java JIT is very mature unlike JITs for most other languages, which largely remain at the level of experimental projects and fall short on key production requirements. Given that the entire Hadoop ecosy…

Yes, that's why kernels are written in java. If you're writing complex code java is rarely the answer as it requires so much complexity itself. Hint: Most java projects just appear to be complex because of the poor quality of the language (and developers). Java is hands down the choice for simple projects written by way too many poor quality developers. The JVM can barely manage 12 GB of memory, Java is a piece of cr…

[deleted]

Re: If Java Is Dying, It Sure Looks Awfully Healthy

#212

Post by JanezStupar »

frankzinger wrote: post #209
JanezStupar wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bjarne Stroustrup has no right of saying anything regarding language implementation and validity of users complaints.

He didn't say anything about the validity of complaints.

In so many words he is saying:

"People complain about my language, because they use it. If it wasn't good (enough) they would not have used it."

Thus the complaints are relegated from feedback to proof that the choices made were right thus invalidating complaints.

Re: If Java Is Dying, It Sure Looks Awfully Healthy

#213

Post by CodeGlitch »

BlarfWobble wrote: post #140
zainny wrote: post #43

I'm surprised nobody has mentioned Android yet. When you add in the Android factor, Java is probably still one of the most widely used programming languages today. It's funny the article straight away brings up the verbosity argument as well. You want to talk about verbosity - take a look at Objective-C and Cocoa (again, hugely popular today!)! Personally, I quite like Java.

Android doesn't really count as java, as it doesn't use the JVM. But even if you do choose to count it, it's only a very small part of the java ecosystem. Applets are dead, and java desktop applications unpopular, but without you necessarily seeing it, enormous amounts of server side software are made with java. If it hadn't been Java, it would have been some other language, but the fact is that there is such an enor…

I don't agree that something isn't Java if it doesn't run on Oracle's JVM. I can write Java that runs on Kaffe, etc.

Personally I really like Java - coming from a C++ developer (11 years in the games industry). I wouldn't mind working with it everyday...

Re: If Java Is Dying, It Sure Looks Awfully Healthy

#214

Post by quchen »

perlgeek wrote: post #170
ww520 wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So which hip languages are these "thought leaders" using now?

Haskell?

Haskell has multiple concepts that are so compelling that I do not understand why most of the new languages make no use of them. Very handwavy, here are a couple of them.

- Type inference: strong typing at the convenience of weak typing. (Some languages are moving towards this. C++ stapled on `auto` keywords, Rust is designed using it)

- Type classes: unifying things that "can do X", allowing the programmer to write functions that do similar things but work on many different types. A "sort" function can then be written for all things that "are containers of elements that can be compared". (Again, Rust adopts this.)

- Allowing separation of pure and impure functions. Imagine having a "pure" keyword that guarantees that a function doesn't have side effects. The benefit of this cannot be overstated in a multithreaded environment.

Re: If Java Is Dying, It Sure Looks Awfully Healthy

#215

Post by 300bps »

KevinEldon wrote: post #85
LukeShu wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be fair, Mono exists, and contains a free implementation of C#.

I have done less than 10 hours of .NET programming in my life so I have no idea here... but my impression is that MONO substantially less accepted than a standard Java port... not trying to bash, just explaining my view. I'm moving a significant production Java app from a Linux box to Windows in the next 3 months. My expected work is about 2-days, and frankly my management wouldn't expect more, and I'd have a hard ti…

I have done less than 10 hours of .NET programming in my life so I have no idea here... but

Then don't comment. Your comment is comparing something you know to something you have no idea about. How can anyone legitimately make such a comparison?

Re: If Java Is Dying, It Sure Looks Awfully Healthy

#216

Post by yareally »

pjmlp wrote: post #122
zainny wrote: post #43

I'm surprised nobody has mentioned Android yet. When you add in the Android factor, Java is probably still one of the most widely used programming languages today. It's funny the article straight away brings up the verbosity argument as well. You want to talk about verbosity - take a look at Objective-C and Cocoa (again, hugely popular today!)! Personally, I quite like Java.

> I'm surprised nobody has mentioned Android yet. When you add in the Android factor, Java is probably still one of the most widely used programming languages today. Except that Oracle was right into suing Google, after all. Google hasn't improved the language level beyond Java 6 grammar. So nowadays one is forced to write in Java 6 when targeting Android, which is really a pain, specially when writing libraries. Thi…

Actually, you can use the following on Android from Java 7 and 8:

- Case/Switch Strings

- Auto closing files handlers (via adding a few classes/interfaces). Also known as "try with resources"

- Integer literals

- Multiple exceptions in a catch block

- Lambdas via RetroLambda[2], which compiles Java 8 bytecode into 7 or 6

Used them all in several projects with 20-100k+ downloads with no user reported errors related to their usage. New Android projects though, I rather just use Scala, but older things I don't want to convert, I use the above to make Java easier to manage.

[1] https://github.com/yareally/Java7-on-Android (small guide I set up to explain how to add all the features above)

[2] https://github.com/orfjackal/retrolambda

Re: If Java Is Dying, It Sure Looks Awfully Healthy

#217

Post by nl »

pjmlp wrote: post #152
buster wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

http://www.wired.com/wiredenterprise/2012/04/schwartz/

Two can play that game, http://news.cnet.com/8301-1035_3-57423754-94/java-creator-ja... In his testimony last week, Schwartz explained his "grit our teeth" strategy after Android had its public debut as an incompatible variant of Sun's Java. "We saw a handset bypass our brand and licensing restrictions...we decided to grit our teeth and support it so anyone supporting it would see us as part of the value chain," he s…

So Sun chose not to sue Google, because it would be costly (and because they knew they'd lose). They could have afforded it, but they chose not to.

History shows that was probably the right decision - As previously mentioned Google kept Android Java close to Sun Java, while now they have stopped updating it and may be considering other platforms.

BTW, you realise Gosling isn't exactly an impartial player here, right? He's always been against open sourcing Java (and open source generally: the EMACS wars probably had something to do with that), and sees what Google did as justification for his opposition. Others (including myself) see Google's actions as vindication of the Java Open Source strategy: it expanded the Java ecosystem into new fields, and made Java more important, not less.

Re: If Java Is Dying, It Sure Looks Awfully Healthy

#218

Post by pjmlp »

JanezStupar wrote: post #210
bloodorange wrote: post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Could you substantiate your statement please. I find that he is in a good position to do so because C++ evolved based on feedback from people using it and he was responsible for the first version(s).

Sure. Nowadays the consensus is that C++ introduced more problems into the industry than it solved. Moreover it keeps introducing more and more problems with each new revision. In this light his statement is merely an attack upon his critics e.g. "Haters gonna hate..." while ignoring the possibility that criticism of "his" programming language is well founded. Sure people bitch about every language sometimes. Hell I…

> While systems programmers are fleeing from C++ back to C ...

Really?

GCC is now developed in C++.

Clang is developed in C++.

Mac OS X I/O Kit makes use of a C++'s subset.

Windows drivers can be done in C++ since Windows Driver Kit 8, while most new native APIs since Vista are COM based. With Microsoft only supporting enough C99 to comply with C++11/14, while helping porting FOSS C projects to Windows.

OS/400, BeOS and Symbian make use of C++ on the kernel.

Many new NoSQL databases are done in C++.

I see the C usage actually decreasing.

Re: If Java Is Dying, It Sure Looks Awfully Healthy

#219

Post by cmircea »

pjmlp wrote: post #108
LukeShu wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be fair, Mono exists, and contains a free implementation of C#.

Of the language, not the libraries or tooling. A language is much more than just syntax. With mono, one ends up writing C# code similar to C and C++, with #ifdefs, or having to search for .NET libraries that are cross platform.

Those cases are inherently platform specific and are impossible to abstract completely.

UI for example. Pure Java UIs plain suck; you can use Gtk# in C# for the same thing, but none will be up to the platform's UI standards.

Besides, the JVM isn't available on iOS and Android, so it isn't universally available either.

Re: If Java Is Dying, It Sure Looks Awfully Healthy

#220

Post by cmircea »

camus wrote: post #89
LukeShu wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be fair, Mono exists, and contains a free implementation of C#.

MSFT could shut down Mono anytime it wants.How many business use mono (to build web apps) in production? Scala,Groovy,Xtend,etc... there is enough languages on the jvm one doesnt have to use any MS related tech.

On what grounds?
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