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How Lavabit Melted Down

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Re: How Lavabit Melted Down

#91

Post by betterunix »

Dylan16807 wrote: post #80
moxie wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We should celebrate Ladar for making the decision to put himself at risk in order to protect his users, but I think we should be careful not to forget that Ladar was forced to make that decision because the security of Lavabit was all a total handwave. This wasn't untested water, either. The exact same thing happened to Hushmail for the exact same reason, and should have been evidence enough that the model isn't viab…

How was it a handwave if it actually worked? And this is the first time I've heard that Hushmail was forced to betray their users, rather than doing it in response to a simple request. Do you have more information on that?

"How was it a handwave if it actually worked?"

Ladar claimed that he had no way to access user emails. The hidden subtext of that, which was sort of hand-waved away, was that he had no such access with the code he had written, and that all that stood between your mail and his eyes was his own willingness to write that code. The entire security of Lavabit depends on Ladar and his principles.

Re: How Lavabit Melted Down

#92

Post by Dylan16807 »

socillion wrote: post #87
Dylan16807 wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How was it a handwave if it actually worked? And this is the first time I've heard that Hushmail was forced to betray their users, rather than doing it in response to a simple request. Do you have more information on that?

Being legally bound to give up the information is equivalent to being forced. If it wasn't forcible, why did Lavabit have to choose between compliance and shutting down? Could you clarify what you mean by "How was it a handwave if it actually worked?" Lavabit, like Hushmail, has had no problem giving up information to law enforcement in the past.

I think I missed some important things lavabit had done in the past, I concede.

Re: How Lavabit Melted Down

#93

Post by conanbatt »

misnome wrote: post #40
antocv wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> A public company would not have been able to make this play, Isnt it funny to hear that a public company would not have been able to do something when it is about something good for its consumers and ultimately its country and citizens, but when it is something extremely bad like compliance, obedience and evilness then they suddenly can and are free to do it. There is nothing stopping Google, Facebook or Microsoft…

> There is nothing stopping Google, Facebook or Microsoft to act as Lavabit did. Nothing at all except for their own cowardice, malicious intents and disregard for laws and their costumers. Try being CEO of Google, Facebook, or Microsoft, and suddenly deciding to close the entire business, and see how far you get before being removed.

Im guessing that if the CEO of google had known of this, he has a big chip to fight it. If google threatened to shutdown or something, public outrage would destroy the NSA.

But they don't have to get up to the CEO, they get the foreign sysadmin guy and tell him he cant tell his boss or his lawyer or he goes to jail and you got anything you want.

Re: How Lavabit Melted Down

#94

Post by smsm42 »

moxie wrote: post #74
jobu wrote: post #4

The integrity and bravery he has shown in this fight is impressive. He has definitely earned enough "cred" to restart this business outside the US and be very successful.

We should celebrate Ladar for making the decision to put himself at risk in order to protect his users, but I think we should be careful not to forget that Ladar was forced to make that decision because the security of Lavabit was all a total handwave. This wasn't untested water, either. The exact same thing happened to Hushmail for the exact same reason, and should have been evidence enough that the model isn't viab…

It wasn't a handwave. It was the best current technology could offer, but this technology was not meant to deal with the oppressive government that can compel any company to reveal any information. As soon as Ladar realized that, and the fact that he is in the jurisdiction of the oppressive government, Lavabit was done.

Re: How Lavabit Melted Down

#95

Post by pionar »

gregd wrote: post #7

There is a huge disconnect between the "justice" system and technology which needs to end. You've seen it before if you're in IT, that glazed eyes look when explaining why their Word document is missing… Anyone with judicial experience know if judges have trusted advisory panels that can help wrap their heads around technology to better rule on cases such as this?

It is up to the participants to bring in experts to make sure the judge has enough relevant information to make an informed decision. Really, even in this case, it does not seem like the judge is doing that badly on grokking the technology.

I think it's actually the other way around, where Lavabit doesn't understand the judicial system and the concept of evidentiary chain of custody.

Re: How Lavabit Melted Down

#96

Post by gknoy »

65_196_127_226 wrote: post #64
CaptainZapp wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And if I recall correctly their ex-CEO is now in jail on allegedly trumped up charges. If true this is utterly despicable by the government. Alas, I'm not surprised.

Is insider trading a trumped-up charge? I didn't hear the internet outrage about Enron's CFO being indicted for the same charge.

If I recall right, the reason it was considered insider trading was that he had published numbers expecting a contract from the government. When he chose to stand up for principles, the contact never landed, which made those predictions false.

I'd appreciate a clearer explanation of this, but last time I read about it, it really did seem like the loss of the contract was out of revenge, and that his prosecution would never have happened had he caved to the requests which he felt were unconscionable.

Re: How Lavabit Melted Down

#97

Post by gknoy »

hobolobo wrote: post #77
3327 wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The guardian said Snowden is to release US gov't assassination program documentation in a weeks time. So perhaps we will get insight on the in inner workings of systematic killing.

I believe the preferred nomenclature is 'targeted killing'.

I'll be surprised if it doesn't have some whitewashed name like "Citzenship Revocation Program" that lets people talk about it without saying "killing".

Re: How Lavabit Melted Down

#98

Post by RyanMcGreal »

> While he opposes the bulk collection of domestic communications, he has no such strong feelings about the N.S.A.’s foreign-surveillance efforts.

As a non-American, I have a problem with this seemingly widespread idea even among privacy advocates in the USA that only Americans are entitled to the protection of their rights from the American government.

Re: How Lavabit Melted Down

#99

Post by smsm42 »

The most scary quote in the whole article is this:

THE COURT: You want to do it in a way that the government has to trust you /.../ THE COURT: And you won’t trust the government. So why would the government trust you?

It was that the whole idea on which US is built on - the Constitution and other founding ideas - was based on trusting the government only with very little that is necessary for it to function and no more, and having the ultimate power reside in the hands of the citizens. Now it comes to trust in the government being implied and if the citizen doesn't trust the government, he is not to be trusted and must be subjected to coercion. And that's coming from courts, that are supposed to be protecting the constitutional rights. America has come a long and very sad way since its noble origins.

Re: How Lavabit Melted Down

#100

Post by pyrocat »

65_196_127_226 wrote: post #60

The amount of support for Levison and ire toward the government in this case is absurd. The FBI followed the Constitutional process of obtaining a warrant for the information of the "one user". I suspect that the only reason anyone cares about this case is because Lord Snowden the Infallible deigned to grace Lavabit with his email traffic. Would the internet outrage be the same if the targeted user was found out to b…

nice troll attempt
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