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Bertrand Russell: In Praise of Idleness (1932)

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Re: Bertrand Russell: In Praise of Idleness (1932)

#31

Post by gyepi »

kamaal wrote: post #15
gyepi wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is never ever going to be a period of time in the human history, there was none in the past, nor will there be in the future where we shall attain peaceful uniform equality among humans. The very concept is against our very internal wiring. Equality means, every one gets the same regardless of their efforts in getting it. This is a very strange concept, and the human understanding of motivation rejects it. My c…

>>However in a "post-scarcity" environment Scarcity of which commodity? The western civilization is already at a point where food and clothes aren't even a problem. Yet the debates about rich and poor are common. Problem isn't the lack of things. The problem is the people thinking that rewards must go in proportion to efforts. That will never change. Tomorrow if every one were to get free food, clothes and a home to…

>>However in a "post-scarcity" environment >>> Scarcity of which commodity?

Scarcity of materials and energy, mostly.

>>> The western civilization is already at a point where food and clothes aren't even a problem. Yet the debates about rich and poor are common.

You are correct that the segment of the population that does not need to worry about food and shelter is much higher than before, but we're not there yet: the "west" is generously about 15% of the world's population.

Unfortunately, discussions of possible futures tend to be rooted in current thinking and assumptions (mostly by necessity); by our current thinking, yes, people would get "free food, clothes and a home" but imagine if those things were as available as the air we breath. We neither talk about "free air" nor argue about its unequal distribution. In fact, we complain when our air is polluted.

Re: Bertrand Russell: In Praise of Idleness (1932)

#33

Post by AimHere »

[deleted] wrote: post #32

[deleted]

>The number one economic fallacy is this: he claims that doing a job, all other things being equal, removes bread from someone elses mouth. This is 100% false.

Russell agrees with you, through the medium of sarcasm and reductio ad absurdum:

>If this argument were valid, it would only be necessary for us all to be idle in order that we should all have our mouths full of bread.

He prefixes citing the argument with:

>Before advancing my own arguments for laziness, I must dispose of one which I cannot accept.

in case you don't get the sarcasm.

Re: Bertrand Russell: In Praise of Idleness (1932)

#36

Post by zackmorris »

parasight wrote: post #7

It is rather strange. More and more things of everyday life are automated and computerized. Nevertheless, I have the impression to have less and less time to do all the things I want/need to do.

I'm beginning to think this is the problem of our time. We have the combined resources to solve any and all problems, but generally solve none of them, and the predicament spans individuals to governments. There is no readily apparent solution, because if there was, it would already be happening (is there a scientific term for that?)

Re: Bertrand Russell: In Praise of Idleness (1932)

#37

Post by cafard »

parasight wrote: post #7

It is rather strange. More and more things of everyday life are automated and computerized. Nevertheless, I have the impression to have less and less time to do all the things I want/need to do.

The book The Harried Leisure Class (http://www.amazon.com/Harried-Leisure-Staffan-Burenstam-Lind...) suggests an interesting explanation for this.

Re: Bertrand Russell: In Praise of Idleness (1932)

#38

Post by acheron »

AimHere wrote: post #27
kamaal wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As automation increases and we have machines do most of our work. We don't seem to put that saved time into leisure. We rather seem to use that saved time to do more work. Humans aren't too happy with every one getting the same, even if that is sufficient for every one's sustenance. We inevitable use our time to buy things that distinguish us from other fellow humans. The theme was also propagated in the novel 1984,c…

>The theme was also propagated in the novel 1984,concept of equality among humans was/is going to be a big disaster. Not at all. If you want to mention an anti-egalitarian novel, Harrison Bergeron is probably the one to pick. Orwell was very definitely big on equality and socialism - In one of his essays, circa World War 2, he even proposed a maximum wage! 1984 was largely a critique of Stalinist totalitarianism (and…

Orwell's main target seemed to be those who "corrupted" what he felt were the originally good ideas/intentions of socialism (Stalin in particular), with the result that people were left worse off (or, at best, no better) afterwards than they had been before socialism.

Whether such "corruption" is inevitable or not... given his other writings, Orwell would have said no, but readers can have their own opinions.

Re: Bertrand Russell: In Praise of Idleness (1932)

#40

Post by n_time »

Swizec wrote: post #14
kamaal wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>>I have all this leisure time that I am being leisurely, but it doesn't feel leisurely. This happens to me too. I wonder its because we are using the same tools for work and leisure. I would describe leisure as going out and playing a sport, or playing a musical instrument, or . I am now thinking we are confused between leisure and procrastination.

> I am now thinking we are confused between leisure and procrastination. It's even simpler than that. We're addicted to the instant gratification of easily digestible information packets. Humans like to be informed and we innately think this is valuable, even when it isn't.

We're addicted to the applications that were designed like VLTs. Practically every application feeds into the animalistic trigger, action, reward habit loop in order to retain users.

Advertising and sites that sell user data attain value through eyeballs. It doesn't matter whether those eyeballs are glazed over, sad, and lonely.

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