Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Why Java Now Rocks More Than Ever: Part 1 – The Java Compiler

zeroturnaround.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

31–40 of 149 posts

Re: Why Java Now Rocks More Than Ever: Part 1 – The Java Compiler

#31

Post by pekk »

diminish wrote: post #6
jonstewart wrote: post #2

Beefs with this article: 1. Runtime-linking _is_ dynamic linking, and it's a PITA that Java doesn't have an option for static linking, especially given the inherent fragility of the CLASSPATH. 2. clang and gcc have compatible command-line option syntax. 3. The options example he lists for gcc is a pure strawman. Maybe they are necessary to compile that particular source file, but it is not necessary to use all these…

Moreover, their own banner ad at the bottom is ironic. "Java is cured, suffering from redeploy madness. Get your cure". http://zeroturnaround.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/660x122...

Didn't you hear that all that changed since Twitter switched, and now it rocks more than ever?

Re: Why Java Now Rocks More Than Ever: Part 1 – The Java Compiler

#32

Post by microtonal »

petercooper wrote: post #17
sgt wrote: post #14

Java is rapidly becoming more viable as an alternative to all of these "trendy" languages these days, e.g. Ruby, Python, Go. What I mean by that is simply that a lot of developers are prejudicious against Java due to historically it being slow and having tedious development feedback cycles. We use Java extensively (and Java EE 6) in an agile IT business and it is truly an asset. I encourage others to look in the dire…

One problem of many is that Java is quite verbose, and while IDEs like Eclipse help with this, there's a significant contingent of open source developers who both refuse to use typical IDEs and who also like to manually manipulate their code rather than let an IDE tweak it about. Languages like Ruby and Python make that easily manageable in a way Java doesn't.

There are languages on the JVM as well with far less boilerplate, that still give you static typing, performance that is compatible with Java, and the whole ecosystem.

For instance, Scala and Kotlin.

Re: Why Java Now Rocks More Than Ever: Part 1 – The Java Compiler

#34

Post by yareally »

microtonal wrote: post #32
petercooper wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One problem of many is that Java is quite verbose, and while IDEs like Eclipse help with this, there's a significant contingent of open source developers who both refuse to use typical IDEs and who also like to manually manipulate their code rather than let an IDE tweak it about. Languages like Ruby and Python make that easily manageable in a way Java doesn't.

There are languages on the JVM as well with far less boilerplate, that still give you static typing, performance that is compatible with Java, and the whole ecosystem. For instance, Scala and Kotlin.

Plus they tend to avoid all the excessive XML tooling and configuration that goes along with J2EE. Compared to nearly any other templating system, JSP is one of the most tedious I've encountered and try to avoid. I had the displeasure of using it a while ago with Struts for a project at my University and hope it will be the last time I ever have to use it.

I assume it stems from Coldfusion and it being popular around the time of the rise of Java, but to continue that tradition nearly 20 years later of XML templating/configuring everywhere just deters professional developers of nearly any other language.

There are some non J2EE Java frameworks that try to remedy the faults of J2EE, but it's kind of given Java on the web a bad rap.

Re: Why Java Now Rocks More Than Ever: Part 1 – The Java Compiler

#35

Post by alayne »

petercooper wrote: post #17
sgt wrote: post #14

Java is rapidly becoming more viable as an alternative to all of these "trendy" languages these days, e.g. Ruby, Python, Go. What I mean by that is simply that a lot of developers are prejudicious against Java due to historically it being slow and having tedious development feedback cycles. We use Java extensively (and Java EE 6) in an agile IT business and it is truly an asset. I encourage others to look in the dire…

One problem of many is that Java is quite verbose, and while IDEs like Eclipse help with this, there's a significant contingent of open source developers who both refuse to use typical IDEs and who also like to manually manipulate their code rather than let an IDE tweak it about. Languages like Ruby and Python make that easily manageable in a way Java doesn't.

The 20-50x performance tradeoff is a hard pill to swallow though. I'd love to see a better performing dynamic language that isn't as minimal as Lua.

Re: Why Java Now Rocks More Than Ever: Part 1 – The Java Compiler

#36

Post by tootie »

petercooper wrote: post #17
sgt wrote: post #14

Java is rapidly becoming more viable as an alternative to all of these "trendy" languages these days, e.g. Ruby, Python, Go. What I mean by that is simply that a lot of developers are prejudicious against Java due to historically it being slow and having tedious development feedback cycles. We use Java extensively (and Java EE 6) in an agile IT business and it is truly an asset. I encourage others to look in the dire…

One problem of many is that Java is quite verbose, and while IDEs like Eclipse help with this, there's a significant contingent of open source developers who both refuse to use typical IDEs and who also like to manually manipulate their code rather than let an IDE tweak it about. Languages like Ruby and Python make that easily manageable in a way Java doesn't.

I like verbose. Some of the bloated patterns populat in enterprise Java are overly verbose, but the language itself is pretty nice for me.

Re: Why Java Now Rocks More Than Ever: Part 1 – The Java Compiler

#37

Post by pekk »

sgt wrote: post #14

Java is rapidly becoming more viable as an alternative to all of these "trendy" languages these days, e.g. Ruby, Python, Go. What I mean by that is simply that a lot of developers are prejudicious against Java due to historically it being slow and having tedious development feedback cycles. We use Java extensively (and Java EE 6) in an agile IT business and it is truly an asset. I encourage others to look in the dire…

You don't provide any reason why I should switch from a language I like to Java EE 6. "it truly is an asset" and "I encourage others" is not a reason.

It's not prejudice when it is true.

Re: Why Java Now Rocks More Than Ever: Part 1 – The Java Compiler

#38

Post by lrobb »

Styck wrote: post #23
petercooper wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One problem of many is that Java is quite verbose, and while IDEs like Eclipse help with this, there's a significant contingent of open source developers who both refuse to use typical IDEs and who also like to manually manipulate their code rather than let an IDE tweak it about. Languages like Ruby and Python make that easily manageable in a way Java doesn't.

This is one of the reasons I use Go in favour of pretty much anything running on the JVM stack. I don't have to change my workflow at all between working in Python, C, Go and JS. I can use vim for all of the above and none of them force me to have years of experience with an IDE in order to be productive.

You can do that with Scala as well. (or groovy or clojure...)

Re: Why Java Now Rocks More Than Ever: Part 1 – The Java Compiler

#39

Post by pron »

rsynnott wrote: post #11

> All this is only worsened by the ‘black box’ nature of the optimization level switches. JVM switches like -XX:CMSInitiatingOccupancyFraction=70 -XX:SurvivorRatio=2 -XX:+UseConcMarkSweepGC -XX:+UseParNewGC -XX:NewSize=2048m -XX:MaxNewSize=2048m (taken from real recommended settings for an open-source project) are, of course, not opaque-to-the-average-user at all :)

You are right, but newer Java versions have what is called "GC ergonomics": you simply define either a throughput or a latency goal, and the JVM tries to dynamically change the settings until to achieve your goals.

Re: Why Java Now Rocks More Than Ever: Part 1 – The Java Compiler

#40

Post by James_Duval »

sgt wrote: post #14

Java is rapidly becoming more viable as an alternative to all of these "trendy" languages these days, e.g. Ruby, Python, Go. What I mean by that is simply that a lot of developers are prejudicious against Java due to historically it being slow and having tedious development feedback cycles. We use Java extensively (and Java EE 6) in an agile IT business and it is truly an asset. I encourage others to look in the dire…

What I like most about Java is that you can switch more easily to certain fashionable languages (Scala and Clojure) which have good interopability with Java because they use the JVM.

Sources for this claim: http://www.slideshare.net/tackers/how-we-mostly-moved-from-j... http://java.dzone.com/articles/moving-java-scala-one-year

Counterpoints: Couldn't find any data on how well Clojure works with Java apps. Scala's decent interoperability appears to stem from a Maven plugin rather than directly from its ability to use the JVM.

Post reply on HN