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Swiss to vote on 2,500 franc basic income for every adult

reuters.com

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Re: Swiss to vote on 2,500 franc basic income for every adult

#561

Post by kijin »

luckyisgood wrote: post #555
kijin wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Define "unaffordable". It's really annoying that people say "it's unaffordable" to mean "we don't want to pay", when the phrase is supposed to mean "we can't pay, we don't have enough money". I understand why people don't want to part with money, but at least let's be honest. If you sort everyone from poorest to richest, and plot their incomes on a graph, basic income just means that the slope is flatter than before…

Thank you for this image. It helps us basic income activists explain to people that basic income is about redistribution, and how it works. I don't know if you know this or not, but this image is being shared on Facebook and Twitter like crazy :) There's a European citizens' initiative going on right now, we're collecting one million signatures and we're using your comment and your image (with attribution, of course)…

I'm glad you found the image useful. No need for any attribution, the graph is in the public domain. Somebody should produce a better version with more accurate proportions based on the Swiss data, possibly with a log scale on the vertical axis to accommodate all income brackets. Then we can really start asking questions about whether that kind of curve is attainable and/or "affordable".

By the way, one of the replies on Twitter says the curve on the right should be linear. Nope. The fact that the curve on the right still has a noticeable slope is the only thing that keeps Friedman, Hayek, and all your favorite (left|right)-libertarians on board the scheme.

Re: Swiss to vote on 2,500 franc basic income for every adult

#562

Post by Suncho »

crassus wrote: post #456
Suncho wrote: post #265

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Paul Graham misses the mark here. I agree with him that it doesn't make sense to try to get rid of income inequality and that income inequality can actually be a positive driving force in the economy. However, it's possible to take money from the rich and give it to the poor, thereby making the poor richer, without preventing income inequality from continuing to increase. Just do it at a low enough rate. And it's not…

What if competence is learned in the work force? Basic income decreases the competence of a civilization as a whole.

Competence at what though? How many Leonardo Da Vincis are being forced to try to be competent at flipping burgers? How many Albert Einsteins and Mozarts are pumping gas?

Re: Swiss to vote on 2,500 franc basic income for every adult

#563

Post by Suncho »

DanI-S wrote: post #280
Suncho wrote: post #265

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Paul Graham misses the mark here. I agree with him that it doesn't make sense to try to get rid of income inequality and that income inequality can actually be a positive driving force in the economy. However, it's possible to take money from the rich and give it to the poor, thereby making the poor richer, without preventing income inequality from continuing to increase. Just do it at a low enough rate. And it's not…

He also attempts to justify the social implications of his position by saying that we can still have high levels of risk-taking and innovation but without suffering an oligarchy by severing the connection between wealth and power. This is a nice idea, but in reality the power that comes with wealth is an even greater motivator than the improved quality of life that comes with cash. He suggests that his motivation for…

A guaranteed basic income can ensure that security is no longer a motivating factor for accumulating wealth. Wealth should be about power, and not about freedom. Everyone should have freedom. I doubt it's either possible or desirable to sever the connection between wealth and power.

Re: Swiss to vote on 2,500 franc basic income for every adult

#564

Post by Suncho »

marknutter wrote: post #294
Suncho wrote: post #265

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Paul Graham misses the mark here. I agree with him that it doesn't make sense to try to get rid of income inequality and that income inequality can actually be a positive driving force in the economy. However, it's possible to take money from the rich and give it to the poor, thereby making the poor richer, without preventing income inequality from continuing to increase. Just do it at a low enough rate. And it's not…

But PG didn't write that essay in response to a basic income argument, he wrote specifically about the argument for eliminating income inequality. So yes, he missed the mark, but only because he wasn't trying to hit it in the first place. > The jobs of tomorrow are becoming less and less definable in terms of the jobs and skills of today. The jobs of tomorrow are no less definable than they were 50 or 100 years ago.…

Most of the low-skilled jobs out there can be automated. And there are already more workers than there are jobs. A decrease in the size of the available labor pool sounds like just what the doctor ordered.

The jobs of tomorrow are less definable than they were 50 or 100 years ago. And each tomorrow comes sooner than the last.

Re: Swiss to vote on 2,500 franc basic income for every adult

#565

Post by mobiplayer »

Thrymr wrote: post #400
tsotha wrote: post #396

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Without border checkpoints official limits are sort of irrelevant, assuming you don't try to resell what you bought.

There are checkpoints, they are (usually) manned and funnel traffic through single lanes, it's just that they rarely actually stop people.

That's how they work. I was stopped at one of those between France and Switzerland.

Stopped, searched (me, my gf at that time and the car) and drug-tested.

Re: Swiss to vote on 2,500 franc basic income for every adult

#566

Post by rdl »

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #351
rdl wrote: post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Medical expenses are presumably lower in Switzerland, college tuition at e.g. MIT for a person making $300k/yr vs. an ETH-Z student, and IIRC taxes on capital gains are lower in Switzerland than in NYC or California (due to state/local taxes). Consumer goods are definitely cheaper in the US.

Those mandated insurance premiums are not cheap unless you are a post doc, hehe. Swiss spends 10% GDP on healthcare, which is higher than most Western European countries though not as high as the USA, which is at about 17% now. Income taxes are low, but you get reamed in the store for daily goods and food.

So I guess it's essentially regressive (or at least flat), in that rich people's consumption isn't dramatically greater than poor people, compared to income. Having a system like that plus a high floor seems relatively fair, IMO, and has reasonable consequences -- everyone is motivated to do marginally more work, and everyone is in a decent position to succeed, or at least for one's children to succeed.

What's really pathological about the US system is that there are gaps where work or other effort is either directly disincented or is so foreign to poor/unsuccessful people that they view being successful as being a traitor to their culture/race/neighborhood/etc. And that for large groups of people, the only way to achieve success appears to be zero sum.

Re: Swiss to vote on 2,500 franc basic income for every adult

#567

Post by seanmcdirmid »

rdl wrote: post #566
seanmcdirmid wrote: post #351

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those mandated insurance premiums are not cheap unless you are a post doc, hehe. Swiss spends 10% GDP on healthcare, which is higher than most Western European countries though not as high as the USA, which is at about 17% now. Income taxes are low, but you get reamed in the store for daily goods and food.

So I guess it's essentially regressive (or at least flat), in that rich people's consumption isn't dramatically greater than poor people, compared to income. Having a system like that plus a high floor seems relatively fair, IMO, and has reasonable consequences -- everyone is motivated to do marginally more work, and everyone is in a decent position to succeed, or at least for one's children to succeed. What's really…

The Swiss have slums, housing projects, and a perpetual lower class with little social mobility. The US system is surprisingly normal in its effectiveness vs a country like Swiss.

There are plenty of places in the states where there is absolutely no opportunity. Take the Mississippi delta for example. Spend some time there and your view on poverty will probably change a bit, it is very much like a third world country where hard work won't get you much beyond survival.

Re: Swiss to vote on 2,500 franc basic income for every adult

#568

Post by grinnbearit »

epo wrote: post #292
_random_ wrote: post #242

Earlier quoted context omitted.

LOL, you just described UK. Multiculturalism doesn't work - it has been tested here.

There are those who reject persons of other races(1) among both the native-born and non-native-born but ignoring them, multiculturalism works very well. (1) Racist is a good shorthand term for these people, idiot is another.

How are race and culture the same thing? Multiracial groups where everyone has near similar beliefs probably work "better" than groups where everyone belongs to the same race and have radically different beliefs.

Re: Swiss to vote on 2,500 franc basic income for every adult

#569

Post by rdl »

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #567
rdl wrote: post #566

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So I guess it's essentially regressive (or at least flat), in that rich people's consumption isn't dramatically greater than poor people, compared to income. Having a system like that plus a high floor seems relatively fair, IMO, and has reasonable consequences -- everyone is motivated to do marginally more work, and everyone is in a decent position to succeed, or at least for one's children to succeed. What's really…

The Swiss have slums, housing projects, and a perpetual lower class with little social mobility. The US system is surprisingly normal in its effectiveness vs a country like Swiss. There are plenty of places in the states where there is absolutely no opportunity. Take the Mississippi delta for example. Spend some time there and your view on poverty will probably change a bit, it is very much like a third world country…

Yeah, I wasn't arguing that people in places like the delta are incorrect in their perceptions -- it's pretty much correct for much of the country, or for groups in even more of the country.

I didn't realize the Swiss have slums and projects. The only Swiss people I know are high-SES, and from my limited time (<3 days) in the country, I didn't see anything less than awesomeness.

Re: Swiss to vote on 2,500 franc basic income for every adult

#570

Post by ZeroGravitas »

crassus wrote: post #455
ZeroGravitas wrote: post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Basic income is given to everyone, not just the poor and/or unemployed. It's actually a very good idea, supported by people all across the political spectrum. You should read up on it before dismissing it.

Personally I can't imagine working 60 hours a week to pay taxes for someone else staying home and playing World of Warcraft

One of the interesting things about basic income, is that it generates responses like this, yet you probably already do this in your country, whether it's welfare linked to job-seeking or disability or having kids etc.

Worse still, the way in which these people are currently given the money makes it economically idiotic for them to go and find a small amount of work, since they'd often end up getting less money overall, so they're trapped in this life of which you don't approve.

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