ADHD Pill Faces High Hurdle in Europe as Stigma Persists • Hacker News Board

Re: ADHD Pill Faces High Hurdle in Europe as Stigma Persists

#61

Post by bayesianhorse » Sun, Oct 06, 2013, 10:02 AM UTC

uniclaude wrote: post #50

anigbrowl wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

thanks to uninformed attitudes like yours, I was unable to get any treatment for my ADHD for years while living in Europe. Instead I was told that I was stressed because I was depressed, and depressed because I was stressed, and made to feel like it was my fault for not being easily treatable. Maybe we can stop growing a monoculture of humans where the slightest deviation from the norm must be treated with some kind…

What you should think about is that for one person like yours that stays untreated with your ADHD, in the US there might be a lot of kids forced to undergo treatments for what is no real ADHD. I grew up in Europe, and I seriously think that I would have spent my life under a very high amount of drugs if I had been raised in the US. I'm very glad I didn't have to go through this, because in Europe it is much more diff…

Researchers in the area usually say that "undertreatment" of ADHD in the US is more common than "overtreatment".

Re: ADHD Pill Faces High Hurdle in Europe as Stigma Persists

#62

Post by bayesianhorse » Sun, Oct 06, 2013, 10:06 AM UTC

lutusp wrote: post #53

bayesianhorse wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Denying the existence of mental disorders is dangerous and harmful to those who indeed have these disorders. And they are disorders. The science on this is very strong. You see "clusters" of similar conditions in millions of human beings, where each of these clusters/diseases have similar problems, and they share potential remedies. The problems these disorders cause the individual are very real and unmistakeably neg…

> Denying the existence of mental disorders is dangerous and harmful to those who indeed have these disorders. The people you're talking about aren't denying the existence of real disorders, they're denying the existence of phony disorders -- and there are plenty. Asperger's, popular a few years ago, is now recognized as a myth and has been removed from the DSM. Until the mid-'70s homosexuality was listed among the p…

ADHD has been well validated. Untreated it not only severely impacts "success" and "earning potential", it also leads to severe other problems like depression and social problems.

Face it: People with ADHD are way unhappier. And that isn't entirely the fault of society. If you are more impulsive, less able to take care of yourself or others, then it is really hard to imagine how you are supposed to feel as well as others...

Re: ADHD Pill Faces High Hurdle in Europe as Stigma Persists

#63

Post by bayesianhorse » Sun, Oct 06, 2013, 10:12 AM UTC

Bluestrike2 wrote: post #56

uniclaude wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What you should think about is that for one person like yours that stays untreated with your ADHD, in the US there might be a lot of kids forced to undergo treatments for what is no real ADHD. I grew up in Europe, and I seriously think that I would have spent my life under a very high amount of drugs if I had been raised in the US. I'm very glad I didn't have to go through this, because in Europe it is much more diff…

Of the two attitudes, only one ensures that those who do suffer from ADHD aren't able to receive treatment. Misdiagnosis, when it occurs, is able to be handled on a case-by-case basis; the "no such thing" stigmatization and other similar lines of reasoning, on the other hand, are a priori positions that reinforce biases that actively work against those who are seeking treatment and those who should but aren't, and as…

In the US, the mentally ill are still often criminalized, and care for mental patients has shifted disturbingly from hospitals to prisons...

Mental illnesses predispose for bad health care coverage...

Re: ADHD Pill Faces High Hurdle in Europe as Stigma Persists

#64

Post by DanBC » Sun, Oct 06, 2013, 10:21 AM UTC

The big thing this article misses is the god awful state of Child and Adolescent Mental Health Services in the UK.

MH services in England for adults are overworked and under funded, and that's much worse for CAMHS.

This is a left over effect of the weird split by age for services (children; working age adults; older adults; learning disability) which we used to have. Those lines are blurring. If you have a dementia like illness you go to a dementia specialist, and it doesn't matter if you're 40 or 70. If you have a first episode of psychosis you go to a psychosis specialist and it doesn't matter if you're 15 or 28. (Although there does have to be splits for in patients, because it's problematic to have under 18s in adult hospitals.)

ADHD is real. (Weird that I need to say that, but there are the usual suspects in this thread with their hateful denial of mental illness.)

But bad parenting is also real. Disturbed behaviour as a result of abuse is real. The meds are troubling. It's important, to protect vulnerable children, that people with ADHD are correctly diagnosed (and medicated if needed) but that people without ADHD are not misdiagnosed. Diagnosis is probably not going to be done by GPs, but by CAMHS specialists, which means that children are going to have to wait considerable lengths of time to get the help they need.

Here's the UK advice for ADHD. Healthcare trusts do not need to conform to the NICE recommendations, but they need good reason if they deviate from these recommendations.

(http://www.nice.org.uk/Search.do?x=-1070&y=-75&searchText=ad...)

Here's the UK patient information about ADHD

(http://www.nhs.uk/Conditions/Attention-deficit-hyperactivity...)

Re: ADHD Pill Faces High Hurdle in Europe as Stigma Persists

#65

Post by lutusp » Sun, Oct 06, 2013, 10:41 AM UTC

bayesianhorse wrote: post #62

lutusp wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Denying the existence of mental disorders is dangerous and harmful to those who indeed have these disorders. The people you're talking about aren't denying the existence of real disorders, they're denying the existence of phony disorders -- and there are plenty. Asperger's, popular a few years ago, is now recognized as a myth and has been removed from the DSM. Until the mid-'70s homosexuality was listed among the p…

ADHD has been well validated. Untreated it not only severely impacts "success" and "earning potential", it also leads to severe other problems like depression and social problems. Face it: People with ADHD are way unhappier. And that isn't entirely the fault of society. If you are more impulsive, less able to take care of yourself or others, then it is really hard to imagine how you are supposed to feel as well as ot…

> ADHD has been well validated.

So has Bigfoot. The difference between Bigfoot and a Grizzly bear is tangible evidence.

Want to prove that ADHD is real? Meet science's requirements, primarily a defined cause, unambiguous evidence, and falsifiability -- the possibility of definitively saying that a given person does not have ADHD.

This is not to argue that ADHD doesn't exist -- it is to say that this is not a matter of science, and until there's some science, anyone can claim to have ADHD, or PTSD, or Asperger's, or claim to have been raped by her father when she is in fact a virgin:

http://www.stopbadtherapy.com/retracts/beth.shtml

There will eventually be science where psychology now stands. But that process cannot begin until people begin to adopt a skeptical outlook appropriate to the subject's unscientific basis.

This is why the NIMH has decided to drop the DSM, and psychiatry along with it.

http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/elements/2013/05/the-s...

Re: ADHD Pill Faces High Hurdle in Europe as Stigma Persists

#66

Post by UK-AL » Sun, Oct 06, 2013, 12:16 PM UTC

saosebastiao wrote: post #25

UK-AL wrote: post #13

ADHD is defiantly a real thing, but I don't think we should drug it out of them. We should make sure they go into suitable jobs/schools, where adhd would have advantages as opposed to disadvantages.

Why not "drug it out of them"? If the disease is caused by a chemical imbalance, why not try to fix the chemical imbalance? Some people (myself included) are not functional without medication.

It's not a disease, its a different type of mind.

Re: ADHD Pill Faces High Hurdle in Europe as Stigma Persists

#67

Post by code_duck » Sun, Oct 06, 2013, 2:10 PM UTC

Bluestrike2 wrote: post #32

code_duck wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nothing at all. Methamphetamine, which is not very different than the dextroamphetamine in Adderal, has proven to be a remarkably safe substance and in general, society benefits a great deal when people ingest methamphetamine. I'm sure schoolchildren being prescribed dextroamphetamine to take every single day for years is a very good idea as well.

Are you honestly comparing crystal meth from the street to something prescribed under the guidance of one's doctor? Your post strikes me more along the lines of hysterics than a rational foray into discussion. For shits and giggles, let's compare apples to apples. Desoxyn (Methamphetamine HCl). There you get the scary M word, but one that's FDA-approved and prescribed--though, admittedly, not commonly--by doctors. Sa…

I am absolutely comparing dextroamphetamine to methamphetamine. It doesn't matter by whom it was synthesized.

They are very similar in pharmacology, so you'd be deluded to not compare the two. Same addictive properties, same deleterious effects on health, similar abuse potential.

Re: ADHD Pill Faces High Hurdle in Europe as Stigma Persists

#68

Post by code_duck » Sun, Oct 06, 2013, 2:13 PM UTC

nav1 wrote: post #23

code_duck wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nothing at all. Methamphetamine, which is not very different than the dextroamphetamine in Adderal, has proven to be a remarkably safe substance and in general, society benefits a great deal when people ingest methamphetamine. I'm sure schoolchildren being prescribed dextroamphetamine to take every single day for years is a very good idea as well.

I don't think it's reasonable to compare the effects of street methamphetamine (which is most likely not pure and the dose is not regulated) with the effects of therapeutical doses of dextroamphetamine prescribed by a doctor.

The impurities in methamphetamine are not what causes the problem: it's the toxicity and danger of the drug itself.

Re: ADHD Pill Faces High Hurdle in Europe as Stigma Persists

#69

Post by code_duck » Sun, Oct 06, 2013, 2:13 PM UTC

ejs wrote: post #31

code_duck wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nothing at all. Methamphetamine, which is not very different than the dextroamphetamine in Adderal, has proven to be a remarkably safe substance and in general, society benefits a great deal when people ingest methamphetamine. I'm sure schoolchildren being prescribed dextroamphetamine to take every single day for years is a very good idea as well.

Is this sarcasm? Hard to tell since many people do take methamphetamine daily as prescribed by a doctor.

If you have narcolepsy, great. You need strong drugs. If you are a kid who fidgets, I don't think you need amphetamines.

Re: ADHD Pill Faces High Hurdle in Europe as Stigma Persists

#70

Post by code_duck » Sun, Oct 06, 2013, 2:16 PM UTC

lfuller wrote: post #40

code_duck wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nothing at all. Methamphetamine, which is not very different than the dextroamphetamine in Adderal, has proven to be a remarkably safe substance and in general, society benefits a great deal when people ingest methamphetamine. I'm sure schoolchildren being prescribed dextroamphetamine to take every single day for years is a very good idea as well.

Methamphetamine in fact IS prescribed by doctors to treat certain disorders. It's unfair to compare prescription methamphetamine to street meth since street meth is not only often very impure, but is typically taken in dosages 30x - 50x greater than a therapeutic dose. This logic could also be used to argue that acetaminophen / ibuprofen should be Schedule I narcotics since taking a dose 30x - 50x larger than the the…

Anyone who took a dosage 30-50 higher times the prescribed dosage of methamphetamine would quickly die. The impurities are irrelevant: the drug is toxic even at normal doses.

I disagree with your comparison of acetaminophen and amphetamines. It seems to be based on your deluded idea about dosage, but other than that, the drugs differ in some rather significant ways such as abuse potential, habituation, psychoactivity, and so forth.