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Swiss to vote on 2,500 franc basic income for every adult

reuters.com

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Re: Swiss to vote on 2,500 franc basic income for every adult

#311

Post by mdda »

ilikehummus wrote: post #203
jre wrote: post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, this is unconditional and on top of any other income you get.

I did not see this anywhere in the article and most models of basic income i know do not do this. They instead only fill you up until you got amount X of money.

The problem is that guaranteeing a minimum means that a low-paying job that potentially pays a little more may result in no increase in total income : The pay being offset exactly by a withdrawal of the government handout. This is equivalent to a huge implicit tax rate for poor people, and is common effect in developed countries with so-called safety nets.

By giving the basic income to everyone equally, everyone has an incentive to earn more money at every point on the wage spectrum. Higher earners will still pay higher marginal rates (likely everywhere else). But the situation of the highest marginal rates being experienced by the poor (which is common) is eliminated, as are the expenses of administering complex benefits and means-testing regimes.

Re: Swiss to vote on 2,500 franc basic income for every adult

#312

Post by marknutter »

samatman wrote: post #310
marknutter wrote: post #299

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I see it differently. If people are receiving a basic income their performance at a job becomes much less important. Why care if you do a good job if losing it doesn't really impact you that negatively?

Let's presume you have a job, rather than being freelance or a founder: Would you continue to do well at it if it was, say, 60% of your income rather than all of it?

I think that the less the job income affected my bottom line, the less I would care about performing well at it. If it was 10% of my income I would care even less. After all, I'd rather be working on my own ideas than someone else's.

Re: Swiss to vote on 2,500 franc basic income for every adult

#313

Post by fnordfnordfnord »

tikhonj wrote: post #2

A Swiss franc is currently worth a little bit more than a dollar, so this works out to $2800/month or $33600/year. By US standards, this actually seems to be a good salary: significantly better than working full time at minimum wage. It would cover all my current expenses handily. Of course, I'm young and single but by no means frugal. (I find that the little costs involved in worrying about my expenses easily outwei…

>By US standards, this actually seems to be a good salary: significantly better than working full time at minimum wage.

The cost of living in Switzerland is among the highest in the world.

Re: Swiss to vote on 2,500 franc basic income for every adult

#314

Post by xavi »

001sky wrote: post #170
xavi wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am all for more fair wealth distribution, but I don't see how this would be sustainable. With a basic income so high and higher taxes on the rich, what's the incentive to work for money? Hence, who would pay this? I think Georgism ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgism ), which doesn't tax income, but it only taxes land (so, not earned income) is a better approach to get a sustainable and more fair distribution of…

you tax people on income, because they have the attachment to money they have not yet received. Also, it is a liquid payment, so the costs of re-distribution are lower as there is no illiquidity losses. If you tax property, then either you are taxing liquid income anyway, or you are forcing the sale of assets (the latter is inefficient, economically, because of asset specificty).

I don't understand any of your arguments! How is a single tax on land value taxing on income? Can you put an example?

I understand the tax would be on the value of the land, not on its size (from your comment I'm not sure if you understood in the same way). The tax only "forces" you to sell assets/property that you don't need or use to generate your income. I don't think this is bad.

I don't see how taxing (land) property you are taxing liquid income too. The tax amount that you will have to pay doesn't depend on your income, so it doesn't penalize your productivity (which typical tax systems do, as they require you to pay more when you earn more).

Re: Swiss to vote on 2,500 franc basic income for every adult

#315

Post by licnep »

marknutter wrote: post #299
TelmoMenezes wrote: post #290

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> One of the main questions about something like this is about who would do boring, low-paid work with this sort of basic income. I believe this would not be a problem in the long run for the following reasons: - A lot of boring low-pay work is unnecessary (dealing with the endless paper trail of over-complicated bureaucracies, lots of things that companies do, like telemarketing, just because it's so cheap, etc. etc…

I see it differently. If people are receiving a basic income their performance at a job becomes much less important. Why care if you do a good job if losing it doesn't really impact you that negatively?

I think i read somewhere that money isn't the best motivator to get people to do the best work they can. And in general even with children they say positive enforcement should be preferred to punishment. So maybe someone doing a job cause they want to, to make more money and have a better standard of living, will get the job done better than someone being forced to do it cause otherwise he will be living on the streets. In my experience the main predictor of the quality of a job is weather the person wants to do it, or has to. The job is the same, it's the perception that's different.

Re: Swiss to vote on 2,500 franc basic income for every adult

#316

Post by Brashman »

marknutter wrote: post #299
TelmoMenezes wrote: post #290

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> One of the main questions about something like this is about who would do boring, low-paid work with this sort of basic income. I believe this would not be a problem in the long run for the following reasons: - A lot of boring low-pay work is unnecessary (dealing with the endless paper trail of over-complicated bureaucracies, lots of things that companies do, like telemarketing, just because it's so cheap, etc. etc…

I see it differently. If people are receiving a basic income their performance at a job becomes much less important. Why care if you do a good job if losing it doesn't really impact you that negatively?

Presumably, people would adjust their way of living to incorporate the extra income from their job so losing the job would affect their way of life. Many people today can't "afford" to change to a lower paying job because their use to the lifestyle their current job affords them. For example, leaving industry to do a PhD can be difficult, even though the pay for a PhD student should cover basic expenses.

Re: Swiss to vote on 2,500 franc basic income for every adult

#317

Post by fnordfnordfnord »

marknutter wrote: post #299
TelmoMenezes wrote: post #290

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> One of the main questions about something like this is about who would do boring, low-paid work with this sort of basic income. I believe this would not be a problem in the long run for the following reasons: - A lot of boring low-pay work is unnecessary (dealing with the endless paper trail of over-complicated bureaucracies, lots of things that companies do, like telemarketing, just because it's so cheap, etc. etc…

I see it differently. If people are receiving a basic income their performance at a job becomes much less important. Why care if you do a good job if losing it doesn't really impact you that negatively?

Because you will still have to compete for desirable jobs.

For menial labor, most of it can/will be automated.

For undesirable jobs that can't be automated away, employers will have to make the jobs desirable. One way to do that will be to increase the pay, but, that is not the only means for doing so. There are many things employers can do to make employment more desirable that have a low or zero net cost. I'd even argue that some of those things would save money/resources in varying amounts even absent the pressure to do so.

One very good and interesting effect that I predict is that individuals whose employment places them in ethical dilemmas will no longer have as much pressure for compliance with potentially unethical demands, since the entirety of their livelihood no longer depends upon compliance.

Re: Swiss to vote on 2,500 franc basic income for every adult

#318

Post by Zak »

yaddayadda wrote: post #237
growupkids wrote: post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not to mention that it also hits business, and some businesses may just choose move to markets without redistribution whereas it may not be as easy for the workers to move. That in turn hits not only the tax base once, but twice (less paid workers, less taxes from businesses).

But the workers that don't move will still have a basic income. Without the 'need' to immediately get new employment, those workers can take the time to train for, or create from scratch, a more fulfilling job at a company that won't pack up and relocate when social welfare is given priority over greed.

But the workers that don't move will still have a basic income.

Unless/until the money runs out, which might happen more quickly than you think if, indeed companies and wealthy individuals start packing up and leaving the country.

Re: Swiss to vote on 2,500 franc basic income for every adult

#319

Post by rsynnott »

cabalamat wrote: post #88
tikhonj wrote: post #2

A Swiss franc is currently worth a little bit more than a dollar, so this works out to $2800/month or $33600/year. By US standards, this actually seems to be a good salary: significantly better than working full time at minimum wage. It would cover all my current expenses handily. Of course, I'm young and single but by no means frugal. (I find that the little costs involved in worrying about my expenses easily outwei…

> this works out to $2800/month or $33600/year. Switzerland's per capita GDP is about USD 79000/year, so assuming 80% of the Swiss population are adults and citizens, this would cost about 34% of GDP, which may be unaffordable.

Remember, the basic income is taxable. Giving the basic income to someone earning, say, the equivalent of 100k USD doesn't actually mean giving them $33600, because it will all be taxed at the higher tax bracket. People will also buy things with the basic income, incurring VAT, and if they buy Swiss things, then the companies making them will also pay corporate tax on that.

So, yes, this programme would cost _something_, but it wouldn't cost 34% GDP.

Re: Swiss to vote on 2,500 franc basic income for every adult

#320

Post by rsynnott »

renata wrote: post #301
rb2k_ wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also: Keep in mind that you could cut almost all social systems (unemployment insurance, the whole departments that manage that stuff currently, ...)

One thing that has always confused me with this claim in regards to basic incomes - if our current model is "We have welfare so people don't die when they can't get food, medical care, etc", then what happens when someone receiving a basic income spends it all on hookers and blow? Are we okay with letting him die now, because he had the option to pay for his basic needs and just chose not to? Or are we still going to…

Most welfare systems in developed countries don't specify what the recipient has to spend payments on, anyway.
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