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Swiss to vote on 2,500 franc basic income for every adult

reuters.com

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Re: Swiss to vote on 2,500 franc basic income for every adult

#201

Post by tempestn »

huhtenberg wrote: post #167
ashray wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First of all, I didn't down vote you. Secondly, all I suggested was that the OP take cost of living into account for his calculations. This is hardly senseless considering that cost of living in most Swiss cities is higher than most tier 2 American cities. Swiss cities often rank at the top for most expensive cities in the world so yeah, I'd say cost of living is certainly on the high side. Of course they also rank a…

My tone is out of line, huh? How about your entire comment is factually wrong and yet you picked an advisory tone for it. The coke doesn't cost 6 franks, nor the cost of living is "extremely high". Also, you should realize that people who might be interested in these 2500CHF will not be living in Zurich, which is more of an exception in terms of cost of living in Switzerland rather than the norm.

Your tone is antagonistic. You could point out what you perceive to be factual errors without throwing around terms like senseless FUD and bullshit, and complaining about downvotes.

Re: Swiss to vote on 2,500 franc basic income for every adult

#202

Post by gaius »

ZenoArrow wrote: post #166
gaius wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Very interesting to watch from another country . That is the real reason politics moves so slowly, because the usual results of political experimentation is mass starvation.

Political experimentation usually leading to starvation... Have you got a high number of examples to back that up? I can only think of a handful.

Sure, Cambodia is one, North Korea, China in the 50s, Zimbabwe... Millions dead.

Re: Swiss to vote on 2,500 franc basic income for every adult

#203

Post by ilikehummus »

jre wrote: post #189
waterlesscloud wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is this for everyone ? In other words, if you're working, is this on top of your income?

Yes, this is unconditional and on top of any other income you get.

I did not see this anywhere in the article and most models of basic income i know do not do this. They instead only fill you up until you got amount X of money.

Re: Swiss to vote on 2,500 franc basic income for every adult

#204

Post by growupkids »

mattlutze wrote: post #144
kijin wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Your graph has the richest people making less than they did before. This is unlikely to happen. Isn't that the whole point of any policy that implies a massive redistribution of wealth? Of course the money needs to come from higher taxes. Ergo, "What matters is political will." As I said, it's really annoying that people say "it's unaffordable" to mean "we don't want to pay". This usage masks the real problem, whic…

I'm not Swiss, so I have no skin in the game. Therefore, I don't care who pays :-) "It's unaffordable" can certainly mean "we don't want to pay". It can also mean "Are there enough rich enough people and businesses that can pay, that this can be passed, or can reasonably be collected?" It is a question of political will, and it's annoying when people lambast that question with criticism as simple selfishness. Redistr…

Not to mention that it also hits business, and some businesses may just choose move to markets without redistribution whereas it may not be as easy for the workers to move. That in turn hits not only the tax base once, but twice (less paid workers, less taxes from businesses).

Re: Swiss to vote on 2,500 franc basic income for every adult

#205

Post by omegant »

Radim wrote: post #194
omegant wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Being from Spain and having seen the reaction to high quantities of money available. A system like this will need to be very well monitored, it can help immensely to those in need, but if done unconditionally it will certainly encourage laziness in a sector of the society. My wife is a doctor and before the crisis she used to have patients DEMAND the permanent disability, because they wanted to stop working. They wer…

Upvoted you back. Discussing such things on HN must feel surreal if you're not the median HN reader (educated, white, entitled westerner with 1st world problems). Talking about what the "poor" would do if this and that, based on your own "hunches", worldview and ambitions. Mass social experiments designed by intellectuals from an ivory tower... uhh. Good luck to Switzerland though, they may be able to afford providin…

I think that it is a Necessary idea, but the implementarion has to be dreaven by results or lack of them. It can not be a static system or it will certainly degrade and be abused, it has to be refocused on a regular basis to help the people that is in need in that moment, and not the ones that are are merely taking profit of it. A high educated and civic society like the Swiss, is more likely to make the best of it.

Re: Swiss to vote on 2,500 franc basic income for every adult

#206

Post by jre »

ilikehummus wrote: post #203
jre wrote: post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, this is unconditional and on top of any other income you get.

I did not see this anywhere in the article and most models of basic income i know do not do this. They instead only fill you up until you got amount X of money.

It doesn't seem to be available in English, but the organisation that wrote the initiative say so on their website[1]. They say "It is added to other revenues". So yeah, the intention is really to have an unconditional basic income for everybody and not some sort of negative income tax scheme as has been proposed elsewhere.

[1] http://bien.ch/fr/page/initiative-federale#revenudebase

Re: Swiss to vote on 2,500 franc basic income for every adult

#207

Post by rwallace »

jre wrote: post #145

As a swiss citizen, I'm really happy we'll have to vote on this. I'm not sure yet what I'm going to vote (I'm slightly bending towards a yes), but I think this is a very interesting debate to have. Especially because this is not a traditional left-right fight. On the left, you have some unions saying this is going to be counter-productive and that it will reduce the leverage of employees in negotiation ("You've alrea…

The big problem I see with it is the age discrimination, of which modern society already has far too much. Strike that clause (and in the case of children too young to understand money, give it to their parents to spend on their behalf), and I would see a good case for it being a net positive, but not the proposal as it currently stands.

Re: Swiss to vote on 2,500 franc basic income for every adult

#208

Post by shubb »

qq66 wrote: post #178
kijin wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Define "unaffordable". It's really annoying that people say "it's unaffordable" to mean "we don't want to pay", when the phrase is supposed to mean "we can't pay, we don't have enough money". I understand why people don't want to part with money, but at least let's be honest. If you sort everyone from poorest to richest, and plot their incomes on a graph, basic income just means that the slope is flatter than before…

A $30,000 designer leather handbag (they exist) is unaffordable for me. I could sell my car, cash in my bank account, give up my apartment, and live in a box on the street with my designer bag. But I'm not going to do that. That's always what "unaffordable" has generally meant.

What about a $30,000 car? Or if you prefer, a $30'000 operation for your favorite child? I think you kind of agree with the post you are replying to...

Re: Swiss to vote on 2,500 franc basic income for every adult

#209

Post by swedev »

rmoriz wrote: post #65

FYI: You have to live 12 years consecutively in Switzerland, pass a tests and a personal hearing done by the local government to get a citizenship by naturalization. Switzerland has one of the most strict immigration rules in Europe. Source: http://www.bfm.admin.ch/content/bfm/en/home/themen/buergerre...

Interesting, I wonder how that would affect foreigners wanting to work in Swiss. If this bill were to pass it would be funded by either increasing taxes or lowering welfare On top of that prices would probably increase at least some. But foreigners would only get the negative effects of this change and not the basic income which would mean they'll probably require more pay to compensate for the loss.

I'm guessing that would affect companies who relies on foreign expertise.

Re: Swiss to vote on 2,500 franc basic income for every adult

#210

Post by seeken »

There have been experiments with NIT (Negative Income Tax) in the US. My impression was that they were a disaster, but in looking for them I found this article,[1] which explains some of the history of NIT in the US.

http://www.city-journal.org/2011/21_1_income-tax.html

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