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Swiss to vote on 2,500 franc basic income for every adult

reuters.com

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Re: Swiss to vote on 2,500 franc basic income for every adult

#171

Post by StavrosK »

m_mueller wrote: post #169
tikhonj wrote: post #2

A Swiss franc is currently worth a little bit more than a dollar, so this works out to $2800/month or $33600/year. By US standards, this actually seems to be a good salary: significantly better than working full time at minimum wage. It would cover all my current expenses handily. Of course, I'm young and single but by no means frugal. (I find that the little costs involved in worrying about my expenses easily outwei…

As a Swiss I'm not completely opposed to the idea of basic income, I just think it's too early. Right now we still need most of the workforce to create our current level of wealth - our unemployed rate is pretty low, usually around 2-3%, and work efficiency is one of the best in the world - it's a well oiled machine where every cog still counts, including lower incomes. Even with the current GDP, paying that bill wou…

You're overlooking how expensive poverty is. I don't have numbers, but this may well end up being cheaper than the alternative.

Re: Swiss to vote on 2,500 franc basic income for every adult

#172

Post by ashray »

huhtenberg wrote: post #167
ashray wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First of all, I didn't down vote you. Secondly, all I suggested was that the OP take cost of living into account for his calculations. This is hardly senseless considering that cost of living in most Swiss cities is higher than most tier 2 American cities. Swiss cities often rank at the top for most expensive cities in the world so yeah, I'd say cost of living is certainly on the high side. Of course they also rank a…

My tone is out of line, huh? How about your entire comment is factually wrong and yet you picked an advisory tone for it. The coke doesn't cost 6 franks, nor the cost of living is "extremely high". Also, you should realize that people who might be interested in these 2500CHF will not be living in Zurich, which is more of an exception in terms of cost of living in Switzerland rather than the norm.

Do you have any citation to support your claim that Switzerland is not a high cost country ?

A simple google search shows Switzerland as one of the most expensive countries in the world. Usually following Norway or Denmark. So why am I factually incorrect?

I searched for 'worlds most expensive countries'. Maybe I did something wrong ?

Of course I know everyone doesn't live in Zurich but the average cost of living is still relatively high outside of Zurich/Geneva. Also, I mentioned in my initial post that this is a good deal so we are in agreement for the most part.

Re: Swiss to vote on 2,500 franc basic income for every adult

#174

Post by lostlogin »

001sky wrote: post #158
jre wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just to put things in perspective (I'm swiss), 2500CHF is a really low salary in Switzerland. There is another initiative asking for a minimum wage of 4000CHF per month. The median swiss salary is close to 6000CHF[1]. The administration says the poverty line is around 2200CHF per month for someone living alone [2]. You can't really just convert to $ and say it's a lot of money. A lot of basic stuff like food, transpo…

The exchange rate that would equalise the price of a Swiss Big Mac with an American one is SFr1.55 to the dollar; the actual exchange rate is only 0.96. [1] == Swiss Franc is most overvalued currency [1] http://www.economist.com/blogs/graphicdetail/2012/01/daily-c...

I get your point, however is it really true to say that? If it were, people would sell the currency to get out while the going is good wouldn't they? How could it stay consistently over priced?

Re: Swiss to vote on 2,500 franc basic income for every adult

#175

Post by fab13n »

tikhonj wrote: post #2

A Swiss franc is currently worth a little bit more than a dollar, so this works out to $2800/month or $33600/year. By US standards, this actually seems to be a good salary: significantly better than working full time at minimum wage. It would cover all my current expenses handily. Of course, I'm young and single but by no means frugal. (I find that the little costs involved in worrying about my expenses easily outwei…

About poorly paid boring jobs: either they're socially necessary and will command higher wages, or they're not worth it, and we'll manage without them.

The main interest of minimal income is to shift the power balance between employer and employees: today, most employees have a choice between complying and starving. Actually in many countries they have to do both. With minimal income, it becomes a choice between compliance and comfort rather than survival. Negotiation between them and their employers can happen again (people still value comfort)

Re: Swiss to vote on 2,500 franc basic income for every adult

#177

Post by marvin »

sjwright wrote: post #80

I've always liked the idea of a base salary for all citizens. However, this plan appears to set the base level far too high -- it needs to be barely enough to fund the most basic of life's essentials, and indexed to an inflation rate of essential commodities. Life on this salary needs to be difficult and unsatisfying. The model I imagine would also: * Be paid to all citizens from age zero. Which means it can replace…

2500CHF is just high enough to pay for the essentials. The United States is a lot cheaper than many parts of Europe.

Re: Swiss to vote on 2,500 franc basic income for every adult

#178

Post by qq66 »

kijin wrote: post #98
cabalamat wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> this works out to $2800/month or $33600/year. Switzerland's per capita GDP is about USD 79000/year, so assuming 80% of the Swiss population are adults and citizens, this would cost about 34% of GDP, which may be unaffordable.

Define "unaffordable". It's really annoying that people say "it's unaffordable" to mean "we don't want to pay", when the phrase is supposed to mean "we can't pay, we don't have enough money". I understand why people don't want to part with money, but at least let's be honest. If you sort everyone from poorest to richest, and plot their incomes on a graph, basic income just means that the slope is flatter than before…

A $30,000 designer leather handbag (they exist) is unaffordable for me. I could sell my car, cash in my bank account, give up my apartment, and live in a box on the street with my designer bag. But I'm not going to do that. That's always what "unaffordable" has generally meant.

Re: Swiss to vote on 2,500 franc basic income for every adult

#179

Post by waterlesscloud »

jre wrote: post #145

As a swiss citizen, I'm really happy we'll have to vote on this. I'm not sure yet what I'm going to vote (I'm slightly bending towards a yes), but I think this is a very interesting debate to have. Especially because this is not a traditional left-right fight. On the left, you have some unions saying this is going to be counter-productive and that it will reduce the leverage of employees in negotiation ("You've alrea…

Is this for everyone? In other words, if you're working, is this on top of your income?

Re: Swiss to vote on 2,500 franc basic income for every adult

#180

Post by brazzy »

lostlogin wrote: post #174
001sky wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The exchange rate that would equalise the price of a Swiss Big Mac with an American one is SFr1.55 to the dollar; the actual exchange rate is only 0.96. [1] == Swiss Franc is most overvalued currency [1] http://www.economist.com/blogs/graphicdetail/2012/01/daily-c...

I get your point, however is it really true to say that? If it were, people would sell the currency to get out while the going is good wouldn't they? How could it stay consistently over priced?

People hold CHF as a hedge against inflation and/or government defaults, not as a growth investment.
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