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Swiss to vote on 2,500 franc basic income for every adult

reuters.com

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Re: Swiss to vote on 2,500 franc basic income for every adult

#11

Post by evincarofautumn »

tikhonj wrote: post #2

A Swiss franc is currently worth a little bit more than a dollar, so this works out to $2800/month or $33600/year. By US standards, this actually seems to be a good salary: significantly better than working full time at minimum wage. It would cover all my current expenses handily. Of course, I'm young and single but by no means frugal. (I find that the little costs involved in worrying about my expenses easily outwei…

You’re right on all points. Most people seem to get some enjoyment from what they do for work, or at least can find satisfaction in it at the end of the day. With a basic income, a person can worry less about making ends meet and more about doing what they want to do. In the short term, that might mean slacking off (and inflation)—but in the long term it seems like people would start being generally productive again, and much happier for it. A sizable chunk of people will just keep doing what they’re doing.

There is little worse than creating jobs—I equate that with creating inefficiency. (Creating careers is another story.) But the more things we can automate, the more humans can live leisurely, thoughtful, happy lives. I for one would enjoy nothing more than to work full-time on my programming language projects without worrying about where my next meal will come from.

P.S. Hi Tikhon! Coming to BA Haskell User Group on the 18th? https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/bahaskell/W0g4J-c5Dh...

Re: Swiss to vote on 2,500 franc basic income for every adult

#12

Post by zalew »

psuter wrote: post #5

Before anyone gets too excited, let's remember that this is also the country where the people voted against raising the required paid holidays (2012), for substantial cuts in unemployment allowances (2010), and for increasing the VAT (2009), just to give some recent examples. Regardless of its merits, it is going to be nearly impossible to gather popular support for an idea such as basic income. But hey, at least we'…

> just to give some recent examples

and the most recent (not necessarily on topic) http://idpc.net/alerts/2013/09/switzerland-decriminalises-ca...

Re: Swiss to vote on 2,500 franc basic income for every adult

#13

Post by ojii »

psuter wrote: post #5

Before anyone gets too excited, let's remember that this is also the country where the people voted against raising the required paid holidays (2012), for substantial cuts in unemployment allowances (2010), and for increasing the VAT (2009), just to give some recent examples. Regardless of its merits, it is going to be nearly impossible to gather popular support for an idea such as basic income. But hey, at least we'…

Yes we Swiss have this weird habit of voting against things that look like they would be a benefit for us (in the short term). I voted against more paid holidays as I think 4 weeks (minimum) is enough and forcing everyone to raise it to 5 would hurt the economy. Similarly I'd vote against this proposed bill if I still lived in Switzerland as I don't see how it could work, despite it being generally an intriguing idea.

Re: Swiss to vote on 2,500 franc basic income for every adult

#16

Post by jrockway »

robomartin wrote: post #8

Maybe I am too obtuse to understand how such things could work. What happens if nobody has a job? OK, that's a little extreme. Let's see, a family of five would get 12500 F per month unconditionally. That's probably a pretty good chunk of money for doing nothing. I see images of five to ten people living together to collectively earn 25000 F per month. In the same story they talk about limiting executive pay to 12x t…

People always want more, so this will allow people to live comfortably while they, for example, acquire a more profitable skill than what they currently have. Then they will earn more, and pay more taxes, and the cycle continues.

Alternatively, the Swiss government may have enough money to invest it all and pay for this out of dividends. Just because the US is broke doesn't mean that everyone is.

Re: Swiss to vote on 2,500 franc basic income for every adult

#17

Post by seanmcdirmid »

ashray wrote: post #4
tikhonj wrote: post #2

A Swiss franc is currently worth a little bit more than a dollar, so this works out to $2800/month or $33600/year. By US standards, this actually seems to be a good salary: significantly better than working full time at minimum wage. It would cover all my current expenses handily. Of course, I'm young and single but by no means frugal. (I find that the little costs involved in worrying about my expenses easily outwei…

Just bear in mind for your calculations that in Switzerland a cup of coffee often costs $6 as does a can of coke. Cost of living is extremely high. But still, this does look like a decent deal. Zurich is like San Francisco in terms of expenses.

A can of coke can cost 6CHF at Zurich airport maybe, but the standard price is 2CHF, and even cheaper at some grocery stores. San Francisco is still much cheaper than Zurich in terms of expenses, only the rents are kind of comparable.

Re: Swiss to vote on 2,500 franc basic income for every adult

#18

Post by psuter »

ojii wrote: post #13
psuter wrote: post #5

Before anyone gets too excited, let's remember that this is also the country where the people voted against raising the required paid holidays (2012), for substantial cuts in unemployment allowances (2010), and for increasing the VAT (2009), just to give some recent examples. Regardless of its merits, it is going to be nearly impossible to gather popular support for an idea such as basic income. But hey, at least we'…

Yes we Swiss have this weird habit of voting against things that look like they would be a benefit for us (in the short term). I voted against more paid holidays as I think 4 weeks (minimum) is enough and forcing everyone to raise it to 5 would hurt the economy. Similarly I'd vote against this proposed bill if I still lived in Switzerland as I don't see how it could work, despite it being generally an intriguing idea…

We were going for 6, actually :P

Re: Swiss to vote on 2,500 franc basic income for every adult

#19

Post by robomartin »

ojii wrote: post #9
robomartin wrote: post #8

Maybe I am too obtuse to understand how such things could work. What happens if nobody has a job? OK, that's a little extreme. Let's see, a family of five would get 12500 F per month unconditionally. That's probably a pretty good chunk of money for doing nothing. I see images of five to ten people living together to collectively earn 25000 F per month. In the same story they talk about limiting executive pay to 12x t…

Every adult gets 2500/month, so a family of 2 adults + 3 children would get 5000/month which is nowhere near enough in most places in Switzerland.

I was thinking of a family with five adults. No reason for the children to leave such a profitable nest.

The other scenario is a group of adult friends or relatives.

Re: Swiss to vote on 2,500 franc basic income for every adult

#20

Post by spikels »

I would greatly prefer a basic income to the thousands of poorly run programs that aim to help the poor. The poor are not helpless but simply don't make enough money for some minimal standard of living (i.e. they are poor). A side effect of many existing programs is that they make the poor dependent and actually discourage self-improvement. A basic income would minimize these unfortunate but real consequences of helping them.

More info http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basic_income

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