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Melatonin

gwern.net

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Re: Melatonin

#131

Post by realitygrill »

jimzvz wrote: post #77
realitygrill wrote: post #13

I use melatonin regularly to regulate my sleep cycle. It's a very effective part of a regimen (sleep hygiene, f.lux, etc) that allows me to manage a nearly-decade long problem of insomnia. However, from a psychological standpoint, it's a very good thing melatonin is so safe. Every single person I've ever recommended melatonin to, I've directed to this article and discussed it with them. Every single such person then…

I have terrible sleep habits and often find it difficult to fall asleep before 5am. I have been considering trying melatonin but my major concern is that I will become dependent on it. I don't want my body to stop producing whatever small amount it already does through its use as a supplement. How dependent on it would you say you are? How well would you function if you were unable to get hold of it?

I don't feel any physiological dependence, as I go on and off it with no consequences that I can detect (other than becoming more prone to slip off my sleep schedule). Generally I only take melatonin daily when I'm adjusting to a new timezone/schedule or have lapsed by purposely staying up. Otherwise I use it maybe twice a week, and have gone months without any.

When I don't take it my sleeping time seems to be a function of sleep hygiene.. Your melatonin production cycles are probably most strongly controlled by zeitgeber factors, like the mentioned blue light wavelengths. My insomnia used to be as bad as yours and now it's fairly normal for me to fall asleep at 1am, even using the computer. Once you get in a pattern, it has some persistence to it.

Re: Melatonin

#132

Post by afterburner »

jimzvz wrote: post #77
realitygrill wrote: post #13

I use melatonin regularly to regulate my sleep cycle. It's a very effective part of a regimen (sleep hygiene, f.lux, etc) that allows me to manage a nearly-decade long problem of insomnia. However, from a psychological standpoint, it's a very good thing melatonin is so safe. Every single person I've ever recommended melatonin to, I've directed to this article and discussed it with them. Every single such person then…

I have terrible sleep habits and often find it difficult to fall asleep before 5am. I have been considering trying melatonin but my major concern is that I will become dependent on it. I don't want my body to stop producing whatever small amount it already does through its use as a supplement. How dependent on it would you say you are? How well would you function if you were unable to get hold of it?

It's not addictive. In fact I found myself not wanting to take it after a while because I had so much energy from getting good sleep, I wanted to stay up late doing stuff. (Even though I should, so I get to sleep at a decent hour.)

I recommended 1mg per 50lbs of body weight, and get the fast acting one, not the slow-dissolving one; those made me drowsy the next morning.

It is a little harder to snap to attention right after waking up, but I shake that off quickly; probably a sign I slept well.

It does affect everyone differently though. I haven't had any negative effects myself, other than with the slow-dissolving "long-lasting" pills (but some might need that to stay asleep).

Re: Melatonin

#133

Post by trendoid »

nickthemagicman wrote: post #107

This is very interesting. Wish hacker news had more hacking the human body articles.

Check OP's website for other hacks. Very comprehensive research(meta-analysis) on pretty much all nootropics and memory improving techniques.

Re: Melatonin

#134

Post by realitygrill »

badman_ting wrote: post #36
realitygrill wrote: post #13

I use melatonin regularly to regulate my sleep cycle. It's a very effective part of a regimen (sleep hygiene, f.lux, etc) that allows me to manage a nearly-decade long problem of insomnia. However, from a psychological standpoint, it's a very good thing melatonin is so safe. Every single person I've ever recommended melatonin to, I've directed to this article and discussed it with them. Every single such person then…

This whole discussion is starting to make me feel reckless in a hilariously inconsequential way. I literally said to myself "I think people take melatonin when they have trouble sleeping...", went to the drug store, bought a bottle, and started taking the dose it recommended, at the time it recommended. Apparently I skipped out on a whole bunch of research I was supposed to have done.

Hey, at least you aren't taking ridiculous doses. I'm pretty cautious about such things so I prefer the research.

Re: Melatonin

#136

Post by realitygrill »

afterburner wrote: post #132
jimzvz wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have terrible sleep habits and often find it difficult to fall asleep before 5am. I have been considering trying melatonin but my major concern is that I will become dependent on it. I don't want my body to stop producing whatever small amount it already does through its use as a supplement. How dependent on it would you say you are? How well would you function if you were unable to get hold of it?

It's not addictive. In fact I found myself not wanting to take it after a while because I had so much energy from getting good sleep, I wanted to stay up late doing stuff. (Even though I should, so I get to sleep at a decent hour.) I recommended 1mg per 50lbs of body weight, and get the fast acting one, not the slow-dissolving one; those made me drowsy the next morning. It is a little harder to snap to attention righ…

Interesting. I'm not sure I've seen extended-release melatonin. IIRC melatonin does not help you stay asleep, so that would be fairly useless.

I recommend starting at the smallest dose you can find designed for sublingual (under-the-tongue dissolving) administration. 0.3mg to 1mg is a good range.

Re: Melatonin

#137

Post by freehunter »

snowwrestler wrote: post #101

Interesting data about melatonin, but I am very wary of appeals to "nature" and "natural" in articles like this. Such references are often proxies for the concept of "good" or "healthy", but that's not necessarily true. Epidermal sun damage is natural too. For example biphasic sleep is a pattern that arises when the darkness period is significantly longer than the human need for sleep. If the darkness period is reduc…

>Epidermal sun damage is natural too

If we're talking from an evolutionary stand-point, humans have protections to keep the sun from killing us. If you're in the sun a lot, you would have darker skin (or skin that grows darker as the sun's rays increase in intensity per the season). You wouldn't be spending all day inside in the Midwest and then be in Brazil the next day. The sun is natural, the way you're exposing (or not exposing) yourself to it is what is unnatural.

It's the same argument that cyanide is natural. Yeah, but humans tend not to find cyanide very tasty at all (as an evolutionary protection). People don't go around eating peach pits just for fun. Pure cyanide being added to foods in concentrated doses as a poison is a human invention and is not natural. Melatonin being used by the body to regulate sleep cycles is natural in the sense that it happens whether we supplement it or not. The unnatural human invention is to boost the natural effect by taking more, or by taking it at a specific time rather than trusting our body to fully regulate its production.

Re: Melatonin

#138

Post by [deleted] »

ChristianMarks wrote: post #114

Gwern comes close to suggesting filtering blue light, but I will repeat a previous post. I've tried melatonin, but it is no substitute for for filtering blue light in my experience, and it tends to induce horrific, apocalyptic nightmares (granted, a night dreaming of EAS Emergency Action Notifications is better than no sleep at all). I used to be an owl for years--decades. A regular 9-5 schedule seemed out of reach.…

[deleted]

Re: Melatonin

#139

Post by goldfeld »

tedks wrote: post #127
ChristianMarks wrote: post #114

Gwern comes close to suggesting filtering blue light, but I will repeat a previous post. I've tried melatonin, but it is no substitute for for filtering blue light in my experience, and it tends to induce horrific, apocalyptic nightmares (granted, a night dreaming of EAS Emergency Action Notifications is better than no sleep at all). I used to be an owl for years--decades. A regular 9-5 schedule seemed out of reach.…

> it tends to induce horrific, apocalyptic nightmares I've used melatonin for years, as have many of my friends and family, and I've never had anyone mention this. I've always had more vivid dreams with melatonin, but I've never had nightmares.

Perhaps it's something to do with particular makes of the drug, but I've also had my worst nightmares while on it, and the words GP used are spot on for me. My mom, aunt and other members of my family had similar experiences and we've mostly stopped taking it. I did partly because it no longer has the surefire effect it once had on me, and partly because I'd often wake up in a crappy/despairing mood because of the apocalyptic nightmares.

On the other hand, I really miss it back when it worked mostly wonderfully. I coupled my intake with an experiment on segmented sleep, where I'd take it some time before 4pm and sleep till around 9pm, often waking up in a so called "writer's mood," and then sleep again (without Melatonin) from roughly 1am till 4am. I tend to be a very unfocused person, but on these intervals between first sleep and second sleep I'd feel in an elevated state of consciousness where my focus was like a laser I could point anywhere. Sublime is a good word, everything feels light and effortless, and the right thoughts just flow when you need them. I'm sure people have felt similarly while on other kinds of drugs, which is interesting to say the least. But I was sober and really productive, and have written my best fiction in this way.

Re: Melatonin

#140

Post by tachyonbeam »

tedks wrote: post #127
ChristianMarks wrote: post #114

Gwern comes close to suggesting filtering blue light, but I will repeat a previous post. I've tried melatonin, but it is no substitute for for filtering blue light in my experience, and it tends to induce horrific, apocalyptic nightmares (granted, a night dreaming of EAS Emergency Action Notifications is better than no sleep at all). I used to be an owl for years--decades. A regular 9-5 schedule seemed out of reach.…

> it tends to induce horrific, apocalyptic nightmares I've used melatonin for years, as have many of my friends and family, and I've never had anyone mention this. I've always had more vivid dreams with melatonin, but I've never had nightmares.

I've had intense freaky sex dreams from melatonin, but... You know, they were very tolerable. An acceptable side-effect.
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