Live data from Hacker News

Ocean acidification due to carbon emissions is at highest for 300m years

theguardian.com

61–70 of 150 posts

Re: Ocean acidification due to carbon emissions is at highest for 300m years

#61

The short-term scenario is not good, but from the little I know about aquatic biology/chemistry, it might not be as catastrophical as the article pictures it. Increased CO2 levels should just cause algae/cyanobacteria blooms, which will balance CO2/O2 levels back again and foster primary consumers (solving over-fishing as a bonus). Also, H2CO3 gets buffered by all the Ca/Mg content in the ocean, so I don't think it's…

Your right in the sense that there is nothing catastrophic from a the perspective of geological time. There have been mass extinctions before. The problem is that we would like to continue living in an environment similar to what we evolved in, and we would like to continue to have large amounts of bio-diversity and biological services available on a timeline that is useful to us. There is nothing particularly magica…

> The problem is that we would like to continue living in an environment similar to what we evolved in, and we would like to continue to have large amounts of bio-diversity and biological services available on a timeline that is useful to us.

I'm adept of the view that the environment influences the organisms as much as organisms influence their environment, or rather that there isn't a clear distinction between environment and the organisms in it [1].

It should be an unrealistic notion to have living human beings and expect the environment to stay the same as before humans [2]. Events like increased CO2 levels in the ocean should be seen as the way things are, rather than one-off catastrophes. These events are what push back on our species, and we are expected to either adapt (be it consciously, with counter-measures, or by accident) or die altogether.

> An interesting corollary to this is the idea that the natural environment is itself unsustainable. (...) Thankfully, we humans have averted this catastrophe by finding a way to recycle the formerly lost carbon and return it to the environment.

This is indeed an interesting perspective, which I subscribe too, and aligns well with the Gaia theory.

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaia_hypothesis

[2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthropocene

Re: Ocean acidification due to carbon emissions is at highest for 300m years

#62
post #51
post #19

> imperilling marine life, on which billions of people depend for their nutrition and livelihood Nature always win in the end! Hopefully the plunge in human population can be handled mostly by attrition.

If things get too bad for too many, I suspect the result in an increase in war and conflict.

What will make things really bad, but for many less people.

Confirming the GP's argument, that Nature wins in the end. Winning is easier when you are not fighting anything.

Re: Ocean acidification due to carbon emissions is at highest for 300m years

#63

Can the CO2 be removed from the ocean and broken into C and O2? Is this geo-engineering we can do?

When asking about our ability to geiengineer, remember that we are the once that caused this problem in the first place, and without even trying. Having said that, releasing CO2 is a much easier problem than removing it. As to your proposal, CO2 would decompose into C2 and O2 (with twice as many O2 molecules). Incidentally, C2 is a strong acid [1]. Additionally, breaking CO2 this way would move it to a higher energy state, and therefore require a net input of energy. (Technically, given what I know, it is possible that there is just a high activation energy to do this, but seeing as CO2 is such a common product of energy releasing reactions, including metabolism, I'm pretty sure it is just a low energy molecule). Also, it took pretty much all of our industrial force to introduce the CO2 in the first place, and there was huge economic incentive.

The more popular ideas in geo-engineering are to let nature do the hard work for us. For example, a common idea is to introduce iron to the ocean. This would increase plankton populations, and the plankton would then use solar power to remove CO2.

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diatomic_carbon

Re: Ocean acidification due to carbon emissions is at highest for 300m years

#64
post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We are actually a week from the anniversary of the world's first act of geo-vigilantism: http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/newsdesk/2012/10/the-f... . Really fascinating stuff.

> ... nearly all agree that we need to move with great deliberation when altering the ecosystem of the ocean. It's been quite a while since Humanity applied anything like deliberation to our ongoing alterations of ocean ecosystems.

The biggest risk is doing nothing at all.

Re: Ocean acidification due to carbon emissions is at highest for 300m years

#65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your right in the sense that there is nothing catastrophic from a the perspective of geological time. There have been mass extinctions before. The problem is that we would like to continue living in an environment similar to what we evolved in, and we would like to continue to have large amounts of bio-diversity and biological services available on a timeline that is useful to us. There is nothing particularly magica…

> The problem is that we would like to continue living in an environment similar to what we evolved in, and we would like to continue to have large amounts of bio-diversity and biological services available on a timeline that is useful to us. I'm adept of the view that the environment influences the organisms as much as organisms influence their environment, or rather that there isn't a clear distinction between envi…

It is sort of incredible that on one post you admit to knowing little about the subject, and then on the next you make authoritative (albeit unsurprisingly asinine) arguments such as "it's unrealistic to expect the environment to stay the same, and we should just treat these events as normal and see if we adapt or go extinct."

Re: Ocean acidification due to carbon emissions is at highest for 300m years

#66
post #48
post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is the top post.

We did it! Maybe there is hope...

I don't know where you live, but the Swedish Green party still want to immediately start phasing out nuclear power. More CO2 for the world.

(If the seas do have an ecological crash which makes the remaining eco systems go down, then any surviving Green party members will probably argue the advantage of this, pushing their carts down "The Road".)

So, no hope. :-) :-(

Re: Ocean acidification due to carbon emissions is at highest for 300m years

#67

How credible a source is IPSO, the author of the report backing this story? From what I can tell it's a U.K. non-profit hosted by the Zoological Society of London [1], itself a U.K. non-profit [2]. Alex Rogers, IPSO's Scientific Director [1], is also a Professor in Conservation Biology at the University of Oxford [3]. Paper article is based on: http://www.stateoftheocean.org/pdfs/Bijma-et-al-2013.pdf [1] http://en.wi…

Well ocean acidification is real and proven. At this point all we're arguing about is how many years we have left.

Re: Ocean acidification due to carbon emissions is at highest for 300m years

#68
post #43

It's sad to me that this is not the top post. It seems that fact is a reflection of the problem at hand. We don't care about the oceans as much as we care about Twitter. :(

I find it incredibly sad it has made the top post. The article does not link to any peer review studies to prove it's point, which to me means it's probably bunk, taking a know issue and enlarging it to sensationalise. And it's sad people fall for this.

With a little bit of research on your own you can find out for yourself that this is an incredibly important issue that affects everyone on the planet, and there is nothing "sensational" about the way it is reported.

Re: Ocean acidification due to carbon emissions is at highest for 300m years

#69
post #34

They talk about the oxygen content falling by 7% by 2100. This makes me wonder: let's assume the worst and earth is headed for a mass extinction event. How long do these events usually take? Are they slow processes, or does everything just die one day?

What would happen is that the rate of biodiversity drops drastically, and organisms that are simple and adaptable (like cockroaches, algae, jellyfich, certain classes of bacteria, small mammals, urban birds) adapt and thrive and consume the rest of the flora and fauna, and permanently adapt their environments making the situation extremely fragile for more complex and delicate birds and larger vertebrates. Also, the…

The Hellstrom Chronicle is a 1971 "science fictiony" cult film that, strangely, won the 1972 Academy and BAFTA Awards for Best Documentary Feature.

In the film, the fictitious scientist Dr. Nils Hellstrom claims, on the basis of scientific-sounding theories, that insects will ultimately win the fight for survival on planet Earth because of their adaptability and ability to reproduce rapidly, and that the human race will lose this fight largely because of excessive individualism.

(The film is available on Netflix and YouTube.)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Hellstrom_Chronicle

Re: Ocean acidification due to carbon emissions is at highest for 300m years

#70
post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you know why this isn't already happening at a pace to keep up with the changes they are measuring? Do you expect that the effects you mention are currently, but will soon catch up? I am honestly curious.

what you're looking for is: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lotka%E2%80%93Volterra_equatio... A predator-prey model is essentially never just a stable population for both. Instead, you go through periods of increasing prey -> increasing predators -> decreasing prey -> decreasing predators. Here the prey would be atmospheric carbon dioxide and the predators would be the plankton.

So atmospheric carbon breeds?
Post reply on HN