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SQRL - Replacement for usernames and passwords

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Re: SQRL - Replacement for usernames and passwords

#101
post #18

http://attrition.org/errata/charlatan/steve_gibson/ > Steve Gibson is somewhat of a "fringe" charlatan. In some professional security circles, he is not considered a reputable security professional, rather more of a snake oil salesman peddling third-rate software with bold claims. While many of his claims are a bit outlandish or bold, few, if any, are demonstrably false. However, when asked to speak on security topic…

Looks more like a simple character attack than anything. Steve is prolific, experimental, and has been around a while, so it's understandable he hasn't done everything right, but I haven't found any other instances where he is considered a "charlatan" by other security professionals.

Re: SQRL - Replacement for usernames and passwords

#104
post #79
post #57

This looks like a much less polished version of Clef ( https://getclef.com/ ). Clef is a really awesome app and they're already powering this type of integration for a few hundred websites. One of the founders is an HN regular, although I can't remember his username (Jesse, reply if you see this).

Using this type of technique (Clef and SQRL) on every login sounds like a particularly evil version of hell.

any particular reason why? I'd love to hear more of your thoughts...jesse @ our domain (if you have a second).

Re: SQRL - Replacement for usernames and passwords

#105
post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's me, thanks! We're glad you think we have a little more polish, but to be honest, we're really excited about any replacement to passwords making waves in the tech world. Ultimately, no single group is going to be able to tackle this problem alone, so the more critical thought we have, the better off we all are. If anyone has any questions about Clef, I'd be happy to answer them, but I also don't want to distrac…

That looks awesome. It works everywhere that OAuth does? Can it be used with a password as a 2FA?

Yep, you can find our docs at http://developer.getclef.com.

Clef is actually 2FA already because it relies on both possession (the device) and knowledge (the 4-digit PIN that protects the app). We're working right now to (optionally) replace the PIN with finger print scanning, when available. Either way, the knowledge (or biometric) portion is much more about asserting ownership of the device (if it gets lost or stolen, you can deactivate online) than as part of the actual authentication process.

Re: SQRL - Replacement for usernames and passwords

#106
Quick + / - analysis:

- "But no two visitors will ever have the same ID". - How is that confirmed, generating random 512 bit keys do not guarantee never having same ID. It's just quite unlikely.

- SQRL lacks strong web-site identification, that's a bad thing. Domain name isn't strong authentication. I would like to include strong site identity with within the QR-key. (Evil website attack, NS spoofing / MITM)

+ No shared secrets is a real bonus. Except, if the attacker has full access to the site already and steals password, they can steal everything else. Therefore if password hashes are stolen, it's major breach of security, and all passwords should be immediately reset. Of course nobody's using same password for separate sites. So, site was breached and thats it anyway.

/ Out-of-band authentication, well, in some cases yes, in some cases no. I wouldn't call this true out of band solution. Especially when using mobile browser, or shared WLAN connection. Fact that authentication data is also routed on same internet route at the server end sounds quite likely. Of course this can be fixed by service provider if they really want to do it.

+ No third-party, that's the only way to go. In anycase when there's a third-party, the solution already sucks badly. That's one of the main reasons why I hate most of SSO solutions. (Single Sign On)

- Mobile (nor desktop) devices aren't secure, having keys in mobile device isn't considered to be secure and those can be extracted. Default mobile device protection isn't good enough for password / identity protection. Most of people aren't even using simple 4 digit pin. Real + would come form completely separate authentication device.

- Using long password with mobile is horrible. My GPG private key password is 20+ chars including tons of special chars. Try typing that with mobile, repeatedly. If shorter passphrases / keys are used, not enough entropy is included.

- "A password lockout system". Eh? Same method should prevent any web-site password hacks too. ;) Anyway, with proper password, guessing should still be futile, read my statement about password earlier. If the password got even 128+ bits of entryopy, it's going to be long guessing marathon. I don't really care even if you try to guess 1 or 10000 pwd/seconds.

/ "such as a personal safe deposit box" - Is not truly secure, what a joke stament.

- Document doesn't describe how identity authentication is linked to the actual client logging in. Basically this would mean that there has to be cookie version of cryptoraphic challenge, or some other data linked to that, which has to be stored for a while at web-servers end. Could this be used to create resource consumption DDoS attack on the service? That's one of the reasons why I don't like solutions which require web-server to maintain state for non-logged in users.

Re: SQRL - Replacement for usernames and passwords

#107
post #57

This looks like a much less polished version of Clef ( https://getclef.com/ ). Clef is a really awesome app and they're already powering this type of integration for a few hundred websites. One of the founders is an HN regular, although I can't remember his username (Jesse, reply if you see this).

That's me, thanks! We're glad you think we have a little more polish, but to be honest, we're really excited about any replacement to passwords making waves in the tech world. Ultimately, no single group is going to be able to tackle this problem alone, so the more critical thought we have, the better off we all are. If anyone has any questions about Clef, I'd be happy to answer them, but I also don't want to distrac…

You should really make a "Show HN" post. Just make sure to mention it on Twitter ;)

Re: SQRL - Replacement for usernames and passwords

#108
post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Personally, even if the design is ok, I don't care to give this chucklehead any publicity. Maybe the blind squirrel found a nut (see what I did there? SQRL?) by getting a design right. Doesn't mean it's anything particularly clever, or that we should use it and give him something to base his incessant self-promotion on for the next 20 years.

For not wanting to give Gibson any publicity, you sure are talking about him a lot. note that i am not affiliated with grc, my name is simply permuted :)

I stand corrected. I don't mind giving him publicity of the "this guy is a complete idiot" variety.

Re: SQRL - Replacement for usernames and passwords

#109

Quick + / - analysis: - "But no two visitors will ever have the same ID". - How is that confirmed, generating random 512 bit keys do not guarantee never having same ID. It's just quite unlikely. - SQRL lacks strong web-site identification, that's a bad thing. Domain name isn't strong authentication. I would like to include strong site identity with within the QR-key. (Evil website attack, NS spoofing / MITM) + No sha…

You are incorrect on your first point. This is an example of the birthday paradox[1].

With 2^512 possible keys (~10^154) even if everyone on earth (~10^9 people) got a billion new IDs every second (~10^18 per person per year) it would be more than a hundred thousand billion billion billion billion billion years (~10^50 year) before there was an even chance of a single ID collision (~10^77 IDs => 50% chance of 1 collision). So I think we can safely assume there will not be a collision.

In fact it is almost always the case in cryptography that there will be some risk of failure but as long as that risk is very small the system is considered secure. This is way way way beyond the normal standards of security (say 10^30 or so).

Many of your other points are a matter of opinion. There will be always tradeoffs between usability and security. This system appears to offer similar or perhaps even improved usability to existing two-factor systems with enhanced security in some respects but similar weaknesses in other respects. I would love to hear the opinions of cryptographers and security experts.

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birthday_attack#Mathematics

Re: SQRL - Replacement for usernames and passwords

#110

Quick + / - analysis: - "But no two visitors will ever have the same ID". - How is that confirmed, generating random 512 bit keys do not guarantee never having same ID. It's just quite unlikely. - SQRL lacks strong web-site identification, that's a bad thing. Domain name isn't strong authentication. I would like to include strong site identity with within the QR-key. (Evil website attack, NS spoofing / MITM) + No sha…

> generating random 512 bit keys do not guarantee never having same ID. It's just quite unlikely.

Truly random 512 bit keys will never repeat, ever, under any circumstances. Seriously, they won't.

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