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Air France 447: The ‘Coffin Corner’ and a ‘Mesoscale’ Maw

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Re: Air France 447: The ‘Coffin Corner’ and a ‘Mesoscale’ Maw

#11

Post by biohacker42 »

So while you are napping, eating or watching a movie on that flight to LAX, you should know the plane you are flying is cruising along at the ratty edge of its capabilities. Why? Money. The higher an airliner flies, the better gas mileage it gets.

As libertarian I prefer an airline which will charge me premium for flying more expensive but safer routes.

However, as a realist I realize that the barrier to entry for airlines is very high and competition is sub-optimal.

So I'd settle for a government mandate of how high commercial airlines can fly.

Re: Air France 447: The ‘Coffin Corner’ and a ‘Mesoscale’ Maw

#12

Post by frisco »

biohacker42 wrote: post #11

So while you are napping, eating or watching a movie on that flight to LAX, you should know the plane you are flying is cruising along at the ratty edge of its capabilities. Why? Money. The higher an airliner flies, the better gas mileage it gets. As libertarian I prefer an airline which will charge me premium for flying more expensive but safer routes. However, as a realist I realize that the barrier to entry for ai…

That's a bit of a jump. How'd you go from "As a libertarian..." to "So I'd settle for a government mandate" in 3 lines?

Re: Air France 447: The ‘Coffin Corner’ and a ‘Mesoscale’ Maw

#13

Post by transburgh »

TweedHeads wrote: post #10
hunterjrj wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why has no one stepped forward to take credit for downing the plane with a bomb? Isn't that the MO for terrorist organizations? Accidents happen, unfortunately. Sometimes planes crash. Our technology isn't perfect, and all we can hope for now are useful lessons to be learned from the crash itself.

If I was a terrorist org, I wouldn't take credit. The new modus operandi is stealth mode, the days of TV shows about terror are over. Terror to create havoc on the world economy and air traveling will be the first hit. Expect more "accidents" in the future.

if a terrorist group does not claim it, the world would not know it was a bomb (per your assumption) and that fear would not translate to the population....therefore your theory dies

Re: Air France 447: The ‘Coffin Corner’ and a ‘Mesoscale’ Maw

#14

Post by joshwa »

telma wrote: post #4

The weather was never considered "horrible" and still isn't. [edit:] At least 12 planes took the same route that night without any incident. http://ibnlive.in.com/news/12-planes-shared-sky-with-af-447-...

From the very last paragraph of the same article (which originates from CNN, incidentally):

> Although none of the other flights are known to have reported weather problems en route, aviation experts said weather can change suddenly and vary over short distances, so one plane might experience conditions far worse than another.

Re: Air France 447: The ‘Coffin Corner’ and a ‘Mesoscale’ Maw

#15

Post by abstractbill »

TweedHeads wrote: post #10
hunterjrj wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why has no one stepped forward to take credit for downing the plane with a bomb? Isn't that the MO for terrorist organizations? Accidents happen, unfortunately. Sometimes planes crash. Our technology isn't perfect, and all we can hope for now are useful lessons to be learned from the crash itself.

If I was a terrorist org, I wouldn't take credit. The new modus operandi is stealth mode, the days of TV shows about terror are over. Terror to create havoc on the world economy and air traveling will be the first hit. Expect more "accidents" in the future.

Terrorist organizations use terror to promote a cause. If you're just making people generally a little nervous, you're not doing a good job of advancing an agenda.

Re: Air France 447: The ‘Coffin Corner’ and a ‘Mesoscale’ Maw

#16

Post by DocSavage »

stcredzero wrote: post #9
run4yourlives wrote: post #5

Reports seem to indicate that they almost made it through the stormcell. Very unfortunate. Whatever it was probably happened extremely fast. Perhaps a (ridiculously unlikely) wing snapped off? Or they stalled and spinned violently?

Boeing tests its wings to breaking by bending them behind the back of the plane until they are pointed up at ridiculous angles. The kind of force that would break the wings of a modern jetliner would also break the necks of a large number of the passengers. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pe9PVaFGl3o EDIT: I stand corrected. As pointed out below, that huge deflection doesn't represent neck-breaking forces. But imagini…

Cool video. I wonder how much of an engineering/structural difference there is between the heavier 777 and the Airbus A330-200 that crashed.

Re: Air France 447: The ‘Coffin Corner’ and a ‘Mesoscale’ Maw

#17

Post by anigbrowl »

TrevorJ wrote: post #2

A very insightful examination. A lot of things I didn't know.

True. Too bad about the tabloid-style typography and literary style, which does serve a purpose of highlighting the takeaways but also gives it an air of sensationalism.

Re: Air France 447: The ‘Coffin Corner’ and a ‘Mesoscale’ Maw

#18

Post by davepage »

stcredzero wrote: post #9
run4yourlives wrote: post #5

Reports seem to indicate that they almost made it through the stormcell. Very unfortunate. Whatever it was probably happened extremely fast. Perhaps a (ridiculously unlikely) wing snapped off? Or they stalled and spinned violently?

Boeing tests its wings to breaking by bending them behind the back of the plane until they are pointed up at ridiculous angles. The kind of force that would break the wings of a modern jetliner would also break the necks of a large number of the passengers. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pe9PVaFGl3o EDIT: I stand corrected. As pointed out below, that huge deflection doesn't represent neck-breaking forces. But imagini…

Not at all. The A340 limit load factor is something like +2.5 / -1.0g. This is not a condition injurious to seated passengers. It is unrestrained passengers who are injured in turbulence -- but that is due to the passenger/cabin collision, not the initial acceleration. The wings in the video flex a long way under these relatively light load factors because the wings are designed to be only a little bit stronger than they need to be.

Aerobatic airplanes and pilots routinely experience transients to +/-6g with no ill effects.

Re: Air France 447: The ‘Coffin Corner’ and a ‘Mesoscale’ Maw

#19

Post by tomiles »

Why when internet is becoming available in planes is something as simple and and essential as updated weather reports not possible during a flight?

Why are these practices seemingly stuck in a stone age of paper weather reports, printed before the flight leaves, that could have been outdated even before the planes takes off.

Maybe this accident will speed up a much needed needed technological update in this aspect of air-travel. We should stop wasting dollars on security theater measures and invest it in real safety measures that can save lives.

Re: Air France 447: The ‘Coffin Corner’ and a ‘Mesoscale’ Maw

#20

Post by samlittlewood »

shizcakes wrote: post #3

Insightful but it seems that there's a lot of speculation about this. Theres an article from timesonline that tied some pieces together and answered some questions for me (like: "How do they know this much detail of the flight without the black box?" A: ACARS). I hope this is helpful to someone else: http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/us_and_americas/...

Thanks. I assume that the forum mentioned in the article is http://www.pprune.org.

The current thread about this accident is http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/376433-af447.html

Apart from the current tragedy, it's a great window into another professional sphere.

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