Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

First physical evidence of why you're an owl or a lark

newscientist.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

41–50 of 63 posts

Re: First physical evidence of why you're an owl or a lark

#41

Post by MarcusVorenus »

LaGrange wrote: post #30
jameswburke wrote: post #5

I'm still not sure what the benefits of waking up and being functional early are, besides a societal one. Ignoring my possible work relations, what difference does it make if I respond to emails at 3pm, have breakfast at 5, work until 10, eat again, work until 2am, relax until the sun comes up, and sleep to do it again. Again, society doesn't work this way and many times there are adjustments to account for this (ear…

One word: sunlight.

To expand: Sunlight makes the body stop producing melatonin and start producing serotonin, which improves your mood and alertness. Being deprived of sunlight for extended periods can result in seasonal affective disorder.

Re: First physical evidence of why you're an owl or a lark

#42

Post by bronbron »

Udo wrote: post #35
kbajorin wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You've missed the point. This is not about those that live healthy lives as nightowls, but those that do not. Can we attenuate the differences among the owls to figure out why some are unhealthy and others are not. Furthermore, can we figure out the attributes that larks have, that on the whole seem to make them healthier than owls. Then, maybe we can adjust the lifestyles of the unhealthy larks to have them lead a h…

> This is not about those that live healthy lives as nightowls, but those that do not. Can we attenuate the differences among the owls to figure out why some are unhealthy and others are not. That's not what the article is suggesting, and attenuating differences to figure out the differences makes absolutely no sense, not even semantically. The attenuation of differences in this context means that the intent is to st…

> The attenuation of differences in this context means that the intent is to standardize the populace, nothing more, nothing less.

> "Rosenberg suggests that people's work schedules should change to fit in with their natural sleep patterns"

I realize there's some of what you're talking about going on here (e.g. the very next phrase mentioning that there's an 'easier way'), but I think there's far less intent than you're implying.

Re: First physical evidence of why you're an owl or a lark

#43

Post by yetanotherphd »

Udo wrote: post #10

All the data I have is anecdotal but here it is: I'm an owl. I do not experience worse sleep compared to normal people, and in my experience my sleep pattern seems to work better than most larks. The things the article attributes to owls are not problems I'm suffering from, but on the contrary some of my lark or normal friends do have them, including unusual tiredness during the day. I usually don't consume tobacco o…

I don't see where in that statement it is implied that the differences should be attenuated for their own sake, and not because of some negative consequences that that researcher believes altered sleep schedules have. The article itself states that the causal relationship between being a night owl and certain negative outcomes is hard to clearly establish, but the tone of the article suggests that many experts suspect such a relationship.

You may disagree with his beliefs, but to claim that an expert in the field is ignorant, just because his statements don't accord with your own experience, is ridiculous.

Re: First physical evidence of why you're an owl or a lark

#44

Post by iliiilliili »

galaktor wrote: post #2

I used to think of myself as an owl. I'd hate getting up in the mornings and my most productive hours were somewhere between 11pm and 3am. I actively started changing my habits a few years ago, meaning I changed my diet to high-fibre+high-protein+high-(good)fat+low-carbs, stopped drinking alcohol cold turkey, get up earlier (~5am) before work to work out and go to sleep earlier (~10pm). This has worked wonders for me…

Why would an owl-ish life be taxing on health? This is a really bad argument I think, what happened to you was this: you improved your life through diet and exercise while at the same time waking up earlier, yet you attribute your improvements in how you feel to waking up earlier. I could lead a healthy life and still go to bed at 6am and feel amazing. Also I wish people would stop this propaganda against carbs.

Re: First physical evidence of why you're an owl or a lark

#45

Post by sengstrom »

Nursie wrote: post #12
galaktor wrote: post #2

I used to think of myself as an owl. I'd hate getting up in the mornings and my most productive hours were somewhere between 11pm and 3am. I actively started changing my habits a few years ago, meaning I changed my diet to high-fibre+high-protein+high-(good)fat+low-carbs, stopped drinking alcohol cold turkey, get up earlier (~5am) before work to work out and go to sleep earlier (~10pm). This has worked wonders for me…

It's good to hear that some people find a way out. I'm not sure it's 'owlishness' or if it's delayed onset sleep disorder, but my body seems to just want more hours in the day. More to be awake for (20 ish) and more to be asleep (10 would be good). If I was left to control my own schedule and didn't have to consider everyone else on the planet I'd probably get up six hours later every day... I've tried making myself…

I did an experiment when I was in my early twenties: I went to bed when tired and got up when I woke up. My time awake shifted an hour or two every day, soon moving my sleep time to fall squarely during day time. I functioned just fine with this schedule but the bad thing about it was it shifted me out of my social life - hard to keep that going when you are asleep when your friends are awake and vice versa.

Re: First physical evidence of why you're an owl or a lark

#46

Post by nucleardog »

galaktor wrote: post #22
Nursie wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think that would suit me either. When I'm awake I stay awake. Sleep likewise. It doesn't (and can't!) address the not-enough-hours-in-the-day thing.

I posted that more because I found it interesting, not because I think it would be very realistic to adopt such a pattern in "modern days". If you want my advice (feel free to ignore me, I'm just a random guy on the internet): If you aren't happy with how it's going for you (big if ), identify the variables you can change, and experiment with them. What worked for me doesn't have to work for you, but I wouldn't count…

(On mobile so I can't really load up much for articles, so the rest is based on an assumption about what you linked regarding segmented sleep in the past.)

My old business partner used to pull it off quite effectively. His girlfriend was an early to bed, early to rise type and seemed to require more sleep than him. They'd go to bed around 9 or 10.

She'd sleep through to 6. He'd sleep through to about 4, get up and screw around on the computer for a couple of hours, go back to bed, and then get up again at 8.

Got to go to bed at the same time as his girlfriend, got an extra couple hours of productive time in the night, got up at his regular time. It was, to me, a pretty ingenious solution within his constraints.

Unfortunately I'm the "if I'm up, I'm up" type. Takes me a bit of work to get conscious but once I do I won't sleep again until my bed time.

Re: First physical evidence of why you're an owl or a lark

#47

Post by kbajorin »

Udo wrote: post #35
kbajorin wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You've missed the point. This is not about those that live healthy lives as nightowls, but those that do not. Can we attenuate the differences among the owls to figure out why some are unhealthy and others are not. Furthermore, can we figure out the attributes that larks have, that on the whole seem to make them healthier than owls. Then, maybe we can adjust the lifestyles of the unhealthy larks to have them lead a h…

> This is not about those that live healthy lives as nightowls, but those that do not. Can we attenuate the differences among the owls to figure out why some are unhealthy and others are not. That's not what the article is suggesting, and attenuating differences to figure out the differences makes absolutely no sense, not even semantically. The attenuation of differences in this context means that the intent is to st…

1. Attenuating non relevant differences absolutely makes sense. Attenuating is used in the context of controls to eliminate confounding variables.

2. I'm unsure how this scientific research shows bias. Small sample size, perhaps, but not much in the way of bias. You on the other hand are taking a scientific study as a personal assault on your lifestyle. The article doesn't even claim that the changes in white matter have adverse health effects.

here is an excerpt: It's also not clear whether the structural changes have any implications for people's health.

3. Yes, I did mean to type owls there.

Re: First physical evidence of why you're an owl or a lark

#48

Post by Raphmedia »

LaGrange wrote: post #30
jameswburke wrote: post #5

I'm still not sure what the benefits of waking up and being functional early are, besides a societal one. Ignoring my possible work relations, what difference does it make if I respond to emails at 3pm, have breakfast at 5, work until 10, eat again, work until 2am, relax until the sun comes up, and sleep to do it again. Again, society doesn't work this way and many times there are adjustments to account for this (ear…

One word: sunlight.

Here in Canada, during the winter, I wake up at 6AM. I'm a bit of a early riser I guess. It's dark out.

I end my work day around 4PM. The sun is already down, and it's dark.

Being an early riser don't really help me get sunlight.

That's my work schedule. I'm naturally a night owl. I prefer to work all night, but I can't.

However, I'm also one of the few who doesn't care that we don't see the sun for month during winter. So being a night owl really helps me from getting "SAD".

FYI, during winter: Sunrise: 7:34 AM Sunset: 4:22 PM

Re: First physical evidence of why you're an owl or a lark

#49

Post by ChristianMarks »

I used to be an owl for years. A regular 9-5 schedule seemed out of reach. This May I changed my environment by filtering out blue light after 8PM. I use the following:

1. Inexpensive Uvex amber googles from Amazon: http://www.amazon.com/Uvex-S0360X-Ultra-spec-SCT-Orange-Anti... Wear them at least an hour or two before bedtime.

2. I replaced most of the white compact fluorescent lights with amber compact fluorescent lights https://www.lowbluelights.com/index.asp

3. And I use a sunrise simulator alarm clock. http://www.amazon.com/Philips-HF3520-Wake-Up-Colored-Simulat...

No will power needed beyond the habit to wear the googles and change the lighting. Usually in bed by 10PM.

Result: no insomnia. Have been able to consistently maintain an early schedule. This would have been inconceivable earlier. I have become the person you've never met.

Re: First physical evidence of why you're an owl or a lark

#50

Post by Nursie »

sengstrom wrote: post #45
Nursie wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's good to hear that some people find a way out. I'm not sure it's 'owlishness' or if it's delayed onset sleep disorder, but my body seems to just want more hours in the day. More to be awake for (20 ish) and more to be asleep (10 would be good). If I was left to control my own schedule and didn't have to consider everyone else on the planet I'd probably get up six hours later every day... I've tried making myself…

I did an experiment when I was in my early twenties: I went to bed when tired and got up when I woke up. My time awake shifted an hour or two every day, soon moving my sleep time to fall squarely during day time. I functioned just fine with this schedule but the bad thing about it was it shifted me out of my social life - hard to keep that going when you are asleep when your friends are awake and vice versa.

I tried that when I was a student, with much the same results though probably a couple more hours shift daily.

You get really weird days when 10am has become 'staying up late' somehow...

Post reply on HN