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First physical evidence of why you're an owl or a lark

newscientist.com

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Re: First physical evidence of why you're an owl or a lark

#11

Post by weland »

galaktor wrote: post #2

I used to think of myself as an owl. I'd hate getting up in the mornings and my most productive hours were somewhere between 11pm and 3am. I actively started changing my habits a few years ago, meaning I changed my diet to high-fibre+high-protein+high-(good)fat+low-carbs, stopped drinking alcohol cold turkey, get up earlier (~5am) before work to work out and go to sleep earlier (~10pm). This has worked wonders for me…

Counter-anecdote: I also tried to shift from my extreme night owl schedule to something more reasonable, particularly due to social reasons. I struggled with it for four years -- including dietary change, workouts and alcohol abstinence, and eventually gave up.

I managed to get myself into the lark schedule three or four times for various periods of time (2-3 weeks minimum, about 6-7 months in the longest streak) but it took a lot of energy to keep myself there. I had to get up very early even during weekends, and push myself to go to sleep around 10 PM, because a single hour off my regular sleep hour was enough to kick my schedule into chaos again. I wasn't drowsy during the day, but I wasn't too productive, nor too energetic, either, and overall my productivity plummeted.

I eventually gave it up. It reverted to more normal hours when I moved in with my girlfriend, who wakes up a bit earlier. Nowadays, I can typically wake up around 10:30 AM without an alarm (and would generally fall asleep around 4 AM), which is a lot better than before when, left to my own devices, I'd wake up around noon. During weekdays, I wake up around 08:30 (fortunately, my workplace is quite close to home -- it's a twenty minute walk); I need the alarm clock for that, but except for Fridays, I'm not too exhausted.

Re: First physical evidence of why you're an owl or a lark

#12

Post by Nursie »

galaktor wrote: post #2

I used to think of myself as an owl. I'd hate getting up in the mornings and my most productive hours were somewhere between 11pm and 3am. I actively started changing my habits a few years ago, meaning I changed my diet to high-fibre+high-protein+high-(good)fat+low-carbs, stopped drinking alcohol cold turkey, get up earlier (~5am) before work to work out and go to sleep earlier (~10pm). This has worked wonders for me…

It's good to hear that some people find a way out.

I'm not sure it's 'owlishness' or if it's delayed onset sleep disorder, but my body seems to just want more hours in the day. More to be awake for (20 ish) and more to be asleep (10 would be good). If I was left to control my own schedule and didn't have to consider everyone else on the planet I'd probably get up six hours later every day...

I've tried making myself go to bed, and sometimes to sleep with chemical help, It doesn't seem to work for more than a few days. I don't seem to have a reset button I can find.

Getting up at 5am regularly isn't really a choice I can see making, however motivated, because 5am would come and my only thought would be how quickly I could go back to sleep, shortly followed by seething, loathing hatred for whatever had woken me. Similarly going to bed at 10 results in me laying there for several hours awake.

I envy people who regularly get tired in the evening rather than waking up and wanting to do stuff when the rest of the world shuts down.

Re: First physical evidence of why you're an owl or a lark

#13

Post by flatfilefan »

danielparks wrote: post #3

This is a horrible title; neither the study referenced nor the body of the article itself makes the claim of a physical cause for being a morning or night person. The study just says that there were white matter “differences in the frontal and temporal lobes, cingulate gyrus and corpus callosum” of the night owl participants compared to the rest of the study participants. The first author suggests this might be a res…

I have heard a permanent jet lag explanation by a longer than 24h daily biological clock cycle. So a person has 8 hours sleep and can go on for 18 hours before she is tired.

Re: First physical evidence of why you're an owl or a lark

#14

Post by galaktor »

Nursie wrote: post #12
galaktor wrote: post #2

I used to think of myself as an owl. I'd hate getting up in the mornings and my most productive hours were somewhere between 11pm and 3am. I actively started changing my habits a few years ago, meaning I changed my diet to high-fibre+high-protein+high-(good)fat+low-carbs, stopped drinking alcohol cold turkey, get up earlier (~5am) before work to work out and go to sleep earlier (~10pm). This has worked wonders for me…

It's good to hear that some people find a way out. I'm not sure it's 'owlishness' or if it's delayed onset sleep disorder, but my body seems to just want more hours in the day. More to be awake for (20 ish) and more to be asleep (10 would be good). If I was left to control my own schedule and didn't have to consider everyone else on the planet I'd probably get up six hours later every day... I've tried making myself…

> I envy people who regularly get tired in the evening rather than waking up and wanting to do stuff when the rest of the world shuts down.

Here's some more from my personal experience (not saying it would work for any of you, and it appears you've already tried a few times):

fwiw, I rarely am tired in the evenings, I just decide that it's reasonable to go to bed now. Similar about food, I do it more to keep my machine working, not because I'm hungry. Sometimes I pull a late-nighter because I'm sucked into something, but getting up the next morning is harder (the "blerch" [1] is louder) so that sucks.

Every time my alarm goes off in the mornings (fun fact: the alarm sound is "Gonna Fly Now" from Rocky :-) there's a few minutes where my inner "blerch" tries to convince me to stay in bed. Every time. I force myself to walk the stairs and down a glass of tomato juice, and in almost an instant, am up and running.

I don't think that it being really easy is the point here. And part of me always wants to stay up long and nerd around. For me, taking control, getting over that hump is never easy and takes a good bit of discipline, for the lack of a better word. I did find that getting up in the mornings and stopping to code/paint/play games a bit earlier before getting tired gets easier with time.

[1] where I got that "blerch" word from: http://theoatmeal.com/comics/running

Re: First physical evidence of why you're an owl or a lark

#15

Post by zhobbs »

Nursie wrote: post #12
galaktor wrote: post #2

I used to think of myself as an owl. I'd hate getting up in the mornings and my most productive hours were somewhere between 11pm and 3am. I actively started changing my habits a few years ago, meaning I changed my diet to high-fibre+high-protein+high-(good)fat+low-carbs, stopped drinking alcohol cold turkey, get up earlier (~5am) before work to work out and go to sleep earlier (~10pm). This has worked wonders for me…

It's good to hear that some people find a way out. I'm not sure it's 'owlishness' or if it's delayed onset sleep disorder, but my body seems to just want more hours in the day. More to be awake for (20 ish) and more to be asleep (10 would be good). If I was left to control my own schedule and didn't have to consider everyone else on the planet I'd probably get up six hours later every day... I've tried making myself…

This is exactly how I describe my sleep pattern. I just don't feel like my body has a 24 hour cycle. I'd probably be awake 20 hours and sleep 7 hours, and would end up shifting my schedule by 3 hours a day if there were no external factors (sun, work, etc).

Re: First physical evidence of why you're an owl or a lark

#16

Post by tifareth »

flatfilefan wrote: post #13
danielparks wrote: post #3

This is a horrible title; neither the study referenced nor the body of the article itself makes the claim of a physical cause for being a morning or night person. The study just says that there were white matter “differences in the frontal and temporal lobes, cingulate gyrus and corpus callosum” of the night owl participants compared to the rest of the study participants. The first author suggests this might be a res…

I have heard a permanent jet lag explanation by a longer than 24h daily biological clock cycle. So a person has 8 hours sleep and can go on for 18 hours before she is tired.

This is my life, every single day. In order to maintain a semi-regular sleep pattern, conking out for a full-night's rest is not optional because the following night I -will not- sleep. Case in point - I have to be up in five hours for work. I went to sleep two and a half hours ago and I'm still awake.

Oftentimes, it feels like the worst kind of torture. I am living in two worlds and in one, I am barely better than an observer of my subconscious mind acting out routine. My ex-roommate had this to say after he'd lived with me a year:

"Tif, you wax and you wane..."

This was a years ago. I think about it once a month or so - he was of course referring to my self as alert and present as well as, alternately, a vapid automaton driven by the eerily invisible clockwork of the subconscious.

Now if you'll excuse me, I have to get my coffee of the stove...

Re: First physical evidence of why you're an owl or a lark

#17

Post by galaktor »

zhobbs wrote: post #15
Nursie wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's good to hear that some people find a way out. I'm not sure it's 'owlishness' or if it's delayed onset sleep disorder, but my body seems to just want more hours in the day. More to be awake for (20 ish) and more to be asleep (10 would be good). If I was left to control my own schedule and didn't have to consider everyone else on the planet I'd probably get up six hours later every day... I've tried making myself…

This is exactly how I describe my sleep pattern. I just don't feel like my body has a 24 hour cycle. I'd probably be awake 20 hours and sleep 7 hours, and would end up shifting my schedule by 3 hours a day if there were no external factors (sun, work, etc).

I've been thinking about this a bit, too. It reminds me of an article I read (can't find the link) that described "segmented sleep" [1]; how our ancestors might have had two sleep phases because nights were longer (e.g. no electrical light). Creative people would often have worked in the quiet period between both sleeps.

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Segmented_sleep

Re: First physical evidence of why you're an owl or a lark

#19

Post by Nursie »

galaktor wrote: post #14
Nursie wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's good to hear that some people find a way out. I'm not sure it's 'owlishness' or if it's delayed onset sleep disorder, but my body seems to just want more hours in the day. More to be awake for (20 ish) and more to be asleep (10 would be good). If I was left to control my own schedule and didn't have to consider everyone else on the planet I'd probably get up six hours later every day... I've tried making myself…

> I envy people who regularly get tired in the evening rather than waking up and wanting to do stuff when the rest of the world shuts down. Here's some more from my personal experience (not saying it would work for any of you, and it appears you've already tried a few times): fwiw, I rarely am tired in the evenings, I just decide that it's reasonable to go to bed now. Similar about food, I do it more to keep my machi…

Lol. I can't think of anything that would have me up and running like that. It often takes several hours after I get up before I properly feel alert and awake.

The only thing that I have found really works is about an hour of exercise, preferably cycling. That was a lot easier when I lived in a warm country.

Also I guess I'm not convinced why I should have discipline... it just seems to work for other people!

Re: First physical evidence of why you're an owl or a lark

#20

Post by Nursie »

galaktor wrote: post #17
zhobbs wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is exactly how I describe my sleep pattern. I just don't feel like my body has a 24 hour cycle. I'd probably be awake 20 hours and sleep 7 hours, and would end up shifting my schedule by 3 hours a day if there were no external factors (sun, work, etc).

I've been thinking about this a bit, too. It reminds me of an article I read (can't find the link) that described "segmented sleep" [1]; how our ancestors might have had two sleep phases because nights were longer (e.g. no electrical light). Creative people would often have worked in the quiet period between both sleeps. [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Segmented_sleep

I don't think that would suit me either. When I'm awake I stay awake. Sleep likewise. It doesn't (and can't!) address the not-enough-hours-in-the-day thing.
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