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Federal Government Begins First Shutdown In 17 Years

forbes.com

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Re: Federal Government Begins First Shutdown In 17 Years

#171

Post by nwzpaperman »

scottjad wrote: post #95
nhaehnle wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The truly positive contribution of a federal government (besides the questionable benefit of military protection) comes in the form of automatic stabilizers for the economy. When there is a shock to the economy, social safety nets dampen the pain significantly. Local and state governments would never be able to provide a reliable social safety net, because they have to operate on the same principles as every other us…

This is basically argumentation by story. You told one of many possible stories as if it was obviously and indisputably true. You provided no support for it. What about all the other plausible stories that you ignored? What if these "stabilizers" (i.e. money creation) are doing more harm than good, or even causing the business cycle? What if social safety hammocks decrease growth? What if welfare provided by prudent…

Fact 1: Government current expenditures directly contribute $5.621 trillion out of $16.6 trillion of US GDP.

http://research.stlouisfed.org/fred2/series/W022RC1A027NBEA?... http://research.stlouisfed.org/fred2/series/GDP

Fact 2: State and municipal governments have subsidized borrowing costs via the federal tax exemption. I don't know where you live, but are your state and local governments borrowers? What about the road money from the Federal Government?

Fact 3: Private savings come from public deficits

http://research.stlouisfed.org/fred2/graph/?g=mzu

What if, what if, what if...

Well, you will discover in due time what all of this nets out to and no one will enjoy it. The forces of deflation are far mightier than the forces of inflation for inflation requires persistent and exponentially increasing consumption, fueled by net-borrowing of the combined public and private worlds.

As it turns out, the zombie apocalypse isn't triggered by an infectious disease or rapidly mutating virus. Instead, it's capital destruction via chaining debt defaults.

Re: Federal Government Begins First Shutdown In 17 Years

#172

Post by caf »

gizmo686 wrote: post #88
Andrenid wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As an outsider, it is definitely seen as "entertaining", while also not really being cared about much. Just another one of those "oh America, you're so silly" moments really.

You do realize that America is a major player in the global economy. If we go down, we are taking everyone with us.

So think of it as gallows humour, then.

Re: Federal Government Begins First Shutdown In 17 Years

#173

Post by darkarmani »

scottjad wrote: post #107

What has surprised me about this issue is how so much of the media has automatically adopted the Democrats narrative (especially on point #1, see below). Surprisingly, the media stories covering this shutdown are actually pretty fair in their summary (at least with respect to point #1). The Democrat narrative has at least three elements: (1) The House Republicans are unwilling to compromise and will shutdown the gove…

Because the Tea Party leaders are being budget terrorists? How is taking Grover Norquist's pledge mean you are able to compromise?

Re: Federal Government Begins First Shutdown In 17 Years

#174

Post by adventured »

ck2 wrote: post #104
001sky wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1 trillion in red ink

Middle class is virtually gone, so what do you think happens when the vultures circling see that all government protection is gone from their prey? The red ink is from everything that is still running right now, ie. the military industrial complex.

The red ink is from the military industrial complex and extreme over promises made to the entitlement systems (used to buy votes for decades and decades). The bills are coming due, and it has been obvious for decades that America could never afford to pay them.

And worse, this is all happening without the true cost of the US debt being taken into account. We're temporarily getting a free stimulus from hyper cheap interest rates on about $12 trillion of debt. That debt at a mere 5% to 6%, wipes out Social Security or the entire military.

Social chaos begins where the violation of the so called social contracts begin. That time isn't far into the future now. The American people are just as responsible for this mess as the politicians, if not more so. That middle class voted this mess into being over the course of many decades, either directly or by negligence and willful ignorance. If the American people aren't careful, they're going to get exactly what they deserve.

Re: Federal Government Begins First Shutdown In 17 Years

#175

Post by base698 »

clumsysmurf wrote: post #156
nostromo wrote: post #24

We all spend so much time focusing on the Federal Government but I doubt many of us will even notice the "shut down." Compare that with what would happen if your local and state governments shut down: Trash would pile up. Criminals would run free in the streets. Fires wouldn't be put out. Water and electricity would stop. Sewage systems would back up. Schools would close. We're talking about services that are the ver…

Mother Jones has a good summary of what this means for us http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2013/09/who-gets-screwed... Some things that surprised me: * Campers: People living (or vacationing) in national parks and forests will have 48 hours to relocate. * People who make money off tourists: Shuttered national parks are bad news for the hotels, restaurants, and other attractions that feed off them. * Employers: The…

I keep wondering if the campers have to leave but the rangers aren't working, then how do they force them to leave?

Re: Federal Government Begins First Shutdown In 17 Years

#176

Post by throwaway420 »

vacri wrote: post #119
throwaway420 wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks for clarifying for me what opinions I'm allowed to have.

It appears that you don't think I should be allowed to share opinions of my own. This is curious, given your clear opposition to the trappings of oppression.

> Excessive taxes are something you can argue about

* I mainly took objection with the implication of your use of the phrase "you can argue about". To me, that phrase either implies that you're saying that I'm not allowed to argue some alternative position, or that somehow my position is the logical equivalent of 1 + 1 = blue.

* I don't have a problem if you disagree with my political viewpoint. In fact, I welcome interesting objections because I usually learn more about peoples' motivations and that helps open up my mind and sharpens my own positions.

* I don't fear a debate about the ethics of taxation and would gladly engage in one with you if you wanted, but I think that would be a further derail from this thread. My main point in posting my original statement was to point out how inaccurate the media is in calling this a shut down when many of the biggest parts of the underlying system keep on trucking.

Re: Federal Government Begins First Shutdown In 17 Years

#177

Post by xerophtye »

clumsysmurf wrote: post #156
nostromo wrote: post #24

We all spend so much time focusing on the Federal Government but I doubt many of us will even notice the "shut down." Compare that with what would happen if your local and state governments shut down: Trash would pile up. Criminals would run free in the streets. Fires wouldn't be put out. Water and electricity would stop. Sewage systems would back up. Schools would close. We're talking about services that are the ver…

Mother Jones has a good summary of what this means for us http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2013/09/who-gets-screwed... Some things that surprised me: * Campers: People living (or vacationing) in national parks and forests will have 48 hours to relocate. * People who make money off tourists: Shuttered national parks are bad news for the hotels, restaurants, and other attractions that feed off them. * Employers: The…

I thought the functions like MediCare and veteran's support program etc were still in effect because the yare paid out in advance. So doesn't that cover food assistance?

Re: Federal Government Begins First Shutdown In 17 Years

#178

Post by rob05c »

pandaman wrote: post #133
rob05c wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The broken window fallacy is only applicable in an economic environment where there is sufficient labor demand and insufficient product supply. America produces more than enough goods for everyone, but there aren't enough jobs. Besides, which services do you believe are "unwanted?" I agree there are many unnecessary "paper pushers" and managers, but the shutdown affects entire departments. One can't simply stop payin…

There are no federal firefighters and beat cops outside DC.

I stand corrected. I've updated my post to note more common federal positions.

Re: Federal Government Begins First Shutdown In 17 Years

#179

Post by nknighthb »

shirro wrote: post #131
nknighthb wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No. There is no monarch or governor general. There are no reserve powers. There is no provision for early general elections. The President is not a Prime Minister, and Congress is not a parliament. Neither is responsible to the other. The House of Representatives and the Senate can each freely block the other indefinitely. The only Constitutional mechanisms available for breaking a deadlock are Congressional election…

We get half senate elections, not 1/3, but a similar result with the senate being out of step with the reps. Which is why in a crisis the double dissolution is a whole senate election to try and get things moving again. It seems odd that the President, being head of state, would not have similar powers to the Crown/GG to dismiss a dysfunctional parliament to resolve deadlocks. Too much power wrapped up in the preside…

The Westminster conventions your Constitution derived from are younger than the US Constitution (and your Constitution is about half the age of ours), and your Constitution was not written by a generation that had just fought a war to free itself from a monarchy. The Presidency was deliberately neutered, and the concept of blocking supply as a tool to thwart already-passed laws was not well-established.

Re: Federal Government Begins First Shutdown In 17 Years

#180

Post by altoz »

alexqgb wrote: post #83
altoz wrote: post #27

why is this a bad thing? less spending on something pretty much everyone agrees is bloated is bad? it's like saying morbidly obese person has slightly less access to food. every person in the media seems to assume this is a bad thing. i say this is a good thing. if we can't agree on how money should be spent, it's better that it not get spent at all.

This is retarded. There's just no other word to describe the mental deficiency big enough to render something as large, complex, and valueable as government as uniformly "good" or "bad", or as something that can intelligently be described in terms of "less" and "more" as though it were a basic commodity. On a more specific note, you have absolutly no idea what's actually happening here. I mean, I don't even know wher…

yep. another person that's completely bought into the media narrative of they're not playing nice, therefore it must be bad. I happen to think the popular narrative that this will end in financial disaster to be wrong. I think previous government shutdowns clearly show this narrative to be untrue. your certainty that I'm ignorant or that this is a certain disaster shows precisely how you don't get my point.
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