Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Federal Government Begins First Shutdown In 17 Years

forbes.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

161–170 of 233 posts

Re: Federal Government Begins First Shutdown In 17 Years

#161

Post by shmerl »

Jayschwa wrote: post #140
shmerl wrote: post #94

Can anyone please, explain briefly what are the downsides and practical problems that ACA will cause?

Lots of cheap "catastrophic" insurance plans for individuals can no longer be offered because they don't meet all provisions of the law. The one I was using last year while I was in between jobs suffered that fate.

I've heard something about limiting the choice of specialists to a very narrow list or forcing using regional doctors (similar to UK). Is that correct? That's actually pretty bad if true, since people will be barred from choosing a preferred doctor.

Re: Federal Government Begins First Shutdown In 17 Years

#162

Post by drill_sarge »

steve19 wrote: post #152
nhaehnle wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The truly positive contribution of a federal government (besides the questionable benefit of military protection) comes in the form of automatic stabilizers for the economy. When there is a shock to the economy, social safety nets dampen the pain significantly. Local and state governments would never be able to provide a reliable social safety net, because they have to operate on the same principles as every other us…

"questionable benefit of military protection" ... You may not like the extent of their protection, or how they go about protecting, but it is childishly naive to suggest the country does not need protection. But I know it is cool these days to pretend that the military is 100% evil and every dollar spent on it is a total waste.

I think it's not a matter of having a military but it's relevant how big it is and how much people are working for it (direct or indirect). Keeping the balance. There are so many people working for them or dependent through government contracts in the US, it's shocking (don't know another word for it right now; americans often talk about freedom and free market and so on but so many are dependent on this complex, a huge chunk of their economy is. Like in almost no other country).

Re: Federal Government Begins First Shutdown In 17 Years

#163

Post by jahmed »

hellcow wrote: post #82
jbooth wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's gotta be about the least justifiable statement in political-economic commentating history.

1. Government is less efficient than a privately owned, profit-seeking company--at least in most cases. If a business is inefficient, an efficient competitor will wipe them out. The same cause and effect doesn't exist for governments, except in the most extreme cases (revolution). 2. Markets that state and local governments dominate are large. Do you really think Waste Management would hesitate to take new markets th…

Your first point is true in idealized situations. There are many circumstances which contribute to the benefit of incumbents. Regulatory capture, first-mover advantage, cartels, price collusion, asymmetric information are just a few tools inefficient incumbents use against new efficient competitors.

Your example of waste, power, and water are a few cases where people, I think, support the government granted monopoly status. These industries have huge fixed costs and generate large externalities. Reliable waste management is a communal concern with clear risks to public health. I'd rather not have the trash company decide my neighborhood is too far to service weekly and switches to monthly pickup.

Government exists as a function of the people to balance externalities. Does it go to far sometimes? Sure. But when people are actively engaged though government can be a force for good.

Re: Federal Government Begins First Shutdown In 17 Years

#164

Post by adventured »

jliechti1 wrote: post #10

How significant is this though? A quick wikipedia search shows the government has shut down 18 times (including this one) since 1976. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Government_shutdown#Federal_gov... In fact, the government shut down almost every year from 1976 to 1987 (only missing 1980 and 1985).

It's not very significant unto itself. Total government expenditures are about $6.7 trillion per year, between local + state + federal. The years will keep rolling on, and they're all going to keep spending more with little evidence of a good return on investment from the last $50 trillion they spent the prior decade. All greased by the nice annual trillion dollar shot from the Fed propping up the Federal Govt., the housing market (state property taxes, 'wealth effect') and the stock market.

The most interesting thing about the shut down, is that it represents a total government failure of competency. All parties, the Congress, and the President; and not just now, but the last 20 years, leading up to this mess. From George W's hyper spending, to Clinton continuing the grand tradition of stealing from SS inflows to fake balance the budget, to Obama's hyper spending increases while the Democrats had super majority control of the House + Senate while they had the Presidency. Everybody is to blame in DC; the partisans claiming their side is right are to blame as well.

Re: Federal Government Begins First Shutdown In 17 Years

#165

Post by ojbyrne »

invalidOrTaken wrote: post #110
shmerl wrote: post #94

Can anyone please, explain briefly what are the downsides and practical problems that ACA will cause?

One downside: it shafts young men uninsured through their employers (read: a considerable part of the HN demographic) pretty hard: http://money.cnn.com/2013/05/14/news/economy/obamacare-premi...

3 points: 1. those others groups with smaller percentage increases currently pay higher premiums. 2. Young men become old men. 3. Young men actually are more likely to have risky behavior that leads to them becoming old men that take money out of the system.

All of these are basically part of the nature of insurance - pooling risk.

Re: Federal Government Begins First Shutdown In 17 Years

#166

Post by darkarmani »

kyrra wrote: post #123
pkfrank wrote: post #46

>The bigger issue, he [Vanguard Group Chief Economist Joseph Davis] said, is how much the turmoil raises the “Uncertainty Tax” on the U.S. economy. Policy uncertainty, Davis argues, is already keeping U.S. economic growth down around 2%, when it could be 3% a year. This is what captures my frustration as well. It's infuriating that a faction of Tea Partiers is causing such instability. Having campaigned on a promise…

I see it as all parties involved not working together to come to a compromise. Saying it's just one groups fault is not looking at the bigger picture. If there are members of congress that were elected under the notion of fighting a single law (such as ObamaCare), that should be a message that a large portion of the country does not like the law. I also see it as a failure of our president not getting the 2 sides to…

> I also see it as a failure of our president not getting the 2 sides to play nicely. Obama should be working with both parties to get the government working. From the media quotes I see from him, Obama is playing the blame game, and not actually working to resolve the issues.

What? Obama had a majority in the senate and the house and still tried to get both parties to work together on obama care. The republicans rejected even the plans that had most of their ideas in them, just because they didn't want obama to get credit. Why would you think he would be able to convince them now?

Re: Federal Government Begins First Shutdown In 17 Years

#167

Post by mehwoot »

hellcow wrote: post #82
jbooth wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's gotta be about the least justifiable statement in political-economic commentating history.

1. Government is less efficient than a privately owned, profit-seeking company--at least in most cases. If a business is inefficient, an efficient competitor will wipe them out. The same cause and effect doesn't exist for governments, except in the most extreme cases (revolution). 2. Markets that state and local governments dominate are large. Do you really think Waste Management would hesitate to take new markets th…

Do you really think a private police force paid for by a particular group of individuals would be a fair and neutral enforcer of laws?

Re: Federal Government Begins First Shutdown In 17 Years

#168

Post by NoPiece »

adventured wrote: post #124
nhaehnle wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The truly positive contribution of a federal government (besides the questionable benefit of military protection) comes in the form of automatic stabilizers for the economy. When there is a shock to the economy, social safety nets dampen the pain significantly. Local and state governments would never be able to provide a reliable social safety net, because they have to operate on the same principles as every other us…

This is a particularly massive point right now. With 46 million people dependent on food stamps, the only thing separating the US from great depression style bread lines right now is that single program. Especially with the huge plunge in the labor force participation rate and the U6 being at 14%. The downside to that is program is, the Federal Government is masking just how bad the US economy really is, with a trill…

According to numerous articles, food stamps (SNAP) aren't affected by the shutdown.

School lunches and breakfasts would continue to be served, and food stamps, known as the Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program, or SNAP, would continue to be distributed. But several smaller feeding programs would not have the money to operate.

http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/09/29/20745618-a-govern...

The USDA said food stamps would not be affected in October.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/09/28/government-shutdown...

Re: Federal Government Begins First Shutdown In 17 Years

#169

Post by clarkm »

ubernostrum wrote: post #113
beedogs wrote: post #30

How do the Republicans reckon they'll come out ahead after this? It'll be a GOP bloodbath in 2014.

They feel pretty confident, because they gerrymandered the hell out of the country's electoral map in the 2010 redistricting. That's how they currently have a majority in the House: there is a significant overall preference among the voters for Democrats, but the electoral map has been drawn so as to concentrate Republican voters and break up blocs of Democratic voters, ensuring that they will have enough "safe" dist…

If you don't want to look like a conspiracy theorist, you should probably stop making such hyperbolic claims about gerrymandering.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2013/02/17/r...

Re: Federal Government Begins First Shutdown In 17 Years

#170

Post by mayneack »

rjbwork wrote: post #19
yellowbkpk wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is. It happens in November every few years.

Wish i could get an extremely well paid job, do jack shit for 2-6 years and then maybe get voted out at the end of that time. Hell, give me a senator's salary for 6 years and I'd be in heaven.

Well, fundraising is a full time job. Can't expect them to do two jobs, can you?
Post reply on HN