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Programming is a Terrible Job

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Re: Programming is a Terrible Job

#161
post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

protip: every job is like this. I went into journalism because i LOVED reading and writing. Making it a career sapped the fun out of it. Now i'm coding professionally. It's much more fun than the pressures of journalism, but I do find myself sometimes thinking "this was more fun when I did it just for the heck of it"

protip: Be a very picky freelancer and only work on projects that interest you.

Bingo! Been there for a few years now. It's awesome. :)

Re: Programming is a Terrible Job

#162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know if it's easy or hard. I'd bet it's rather on the easy side. What I know is that it's not with having dealines to produce the next product that anybody will have the time to take some step back and come with a better (more automatic) way of doing things. What's painful, it's not doing something repeatitive. It's being presured to repeat it, without being let automatizing it, which is what we should do as…

I had a colleague once that wanted to invest 4-8 hours writing a script that would save her about 1 hour each time it is run. The script was expected to be ran about once a week. She did the wrong thing and asked her boss. "Not enough time, there's more urgent things to do." She then lost an hour per week, contributing to the general sense of urgency that she lived under. Of course, this wasn't the only such script s…

I look at it this way. Bosses don't understand craft, only results. It's your job to understand the craft, and to get the results your boss is looking for. Automation, scripting, refactoring, these things are part of the craft and can't be skipped, so they're part of the job and it's not done until they're done.

So don't present your results to the boss until all the work's done. It takes as long as it takes.

Re: Programming is a Terrible Job

#163
post #156
post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I get the suspicion that a lot of people tech startup circles, never had to worry about paying there own bills. At any stage of life.

That sounds harsh. I think it's more that there are many young, single people who have the freedom to accept financial hardship in the short term, in order to secure wealth. Once you have kids, you can't as easily say, "well, we'll just sleep in the car for a year", or "I'll just stay at work ten hours a day and take advantage of their free meals" (or something). For most parents, our risk-taking preferences change d…

Yea it was definitely targeted at the right of college SF VC/incubator crowd.

Re: Programming is a Terrible Job

#164

"Internet was a luxury in our struggling country" Based on this, though nothing can be assumed, I can't help but wonder if the author was doing outsourced/offshored development work for another country? I can only imagine that doing outsourced/offshored work brings with it an extra level of dehumanized drudgery. I am a software engineer who typically works with small teams and/or small businesses. While the code-writ…

The flip side of that equation is that in developing countries that much of the "drudgery" is outsourced to, call-centre work is considered aspirational and there are people literally killing themselves with physical labour for less per week than an established elancer can earn in a couple of hours. This may not be quite the situation the original author faced, but it certainly helps put the lack of excitement in fixing IE7 bugs for anonymous foreigners into perspective.

Re: Programming is a Terrible Job

#165
post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Solving problems is interesting. Repetition is terrible." Most "programming" is just "digital plumbing". No matter how flashy or utilitarian the taps or basin are, underneath the job is pretty much always the same - you hook up hot water to one tap, cold water to the other, and the sink drain to the drainpipe. You can do a great job or a shoddy job - so long as nothing leaks _too_ much, it doesn't make any differenc…

I'll be honest, this fact in and of itself is driving me to plan for a PhD. I have no interest in being a digital plumber. Zip. Zero. Nada. I want to solve fundamental problems that have never before been solved.

[deleted]

Re: Programming is a Terrible Job

#166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

protip: every job is like this. I went into journalism because i LOVED reading and writing. Making it a career sapped the fun out of it. Now i'm coding professionally. It's much more fun than the pressures of journalism, but I do find myself sometimes thinking "this was more fun when I did it just for the heck of it"

Most jobs, yeah. I do know a few engineers (the non-software type) whose interests seem surprisingly closely aligned with their jobs. One is a chip-design/layout person, and another is a chemical process engineer.

I think jobs can be more fulfilling give you value in pursuing your interest beyond what's possible outside of a job. Such as a lab with expensive or hard to acquire equipment for research or fabrication. In some cases, it can be an opportunity to solve a problem beyond normal bounds of home hobbies.

But programming many jobs seem like the types of thing you can do even without the job.

Re: Programming is a Terrible Job

#168
I understand OP's sentiment and I'm glad that he (assuming he's a guy) at least admits that some of this is youthful idealism having a tough run-in with reality.

That said, I don't think he has to stay stuck in this mentality. And, there are many benefits to being "just a software engineer". Much of it depends on your attitude towards life and what you're expecting and/or hoping to get out of it.

First, it's important to recognize that as we get older, we'll eventually have to confront the fact that not all of our dreams and ambitions will come true. If you look at the number of thought leaders in the industry in ratio to the total number of programmers, very few make it to the top 1%. I don't think it's a zero-sum thing, it's more that at a certain point, people give up and decide to do something else. OP may be one of those people who decides that because reality didn't match his expectations, he's just going to give up. On the other hand, he could decide to push himself and his understanding of what it means to program to a new level. And then he might see new opportunities in his current job that he hadn't noticed before. I know that this can sound hopelessly fanciful and idealistic, but it really is true and quite possible; I speak from my own experience here.

Second, one of the most awesome things about programming - regardless of the type you're doing - is that it helps improve your mind. Since I've been in the tech industry, I've found that my thinking tends to be cleaner, more rigorous, and more realistic (though not always, of course). I have an easier time understanding difficult topics than I used to and I also find the process of learning easier than in the past. For that reason alone programming is a worthwhile pursuit. Who doesn't like their mind to work better?

Finally, OP has some growing to do and should try to realize that his current predicament has much to do with his attitude and little to do with his actual job. As other posters have noted, this problem exists in every creative industry. You were excited about the pure fun of it when you were younger, and now you feel mugged by reality as it were. Part of this could relate to our model of education which sometimes makes it seem as if academia is much preferable to actual private industry work. Like they said in Ghostbusters - "they expect results in the private sector!"

My advice to OP would be to try and balance his current work responsibilities with something fun outside of work, something that gets his juices flowing. Learning to bring a sense of play into your really helps, otherwise yes...the sense of drudgery can kill you. So the trick is to learn to stay positive. Sounds like a tall order but it's definitely doable.

Re: Programming is a Terrible Job

#169
Well, this is also a terrible perspective. Programming can be like being a professional chef. There are some that become Gordon Ramsay's and others that get stuck in a greasy diner at a forgotten highway off-ramp.

Cooking professionally can be ugly, filthy, horrible hard work. There's the television version of the rich and famous cook and the reality of the actual work being really hard. And, yes, you have to do a lot of stuff you don't really enjoy doing. And, yes, it isn't all creative and wonderful.

Why am I making an analogy to cooking? Because over the last few years I've ended-up doing a lot of cooking for my family. I've studied some and really enjoy the creative process. However, I've also found myself completely and utterly fed-up with it at times. I used to be the designated cook when we went camping. The last time we went camping I drove out as far as necessary to go get take-out.

So,yes, programming, depending on the choices you make, can be like sausage making.

If you are the creative type you need to make an effort to find the right job for you or start your own business. Still, as someone else pointed out, you are going to have to stomach the idea that you are still going to have to do things that you will not enjoy. This is true of any job.

I always told my employees that I'd never ask them to do anything I was not willing to do myself (or hadn't done before myself). Examples of that were things like washing the pile of filthy coffee mugs in the kitchen area ('cause it seems that adults are pretty bad about cleaning after themselves sometimes) or getting in our Haas CNC machine to clean it. The point wasn't that I expected them to actively do these things but to realize that all of us ought to understand that there are things you don't enjoy doing that simply need to be done.

As a programmer you need to seek out work that really turns you on. How do you know? Because you can't stop thinking about it and you can't stop working on it. You want to talk about it all the time and you want to learn how to do it better. In other words, you are passionate about it.

In general terms there's a lot of mobility in the CS world. You need to take advantage of this and actively hunt for work that is really engages you while fully understanding that utopia does not exist.

Re: Programming is a Terrible Job

#170
Difference between the hobby and the job I find is your control over what and when you do the things you want to do. Both have the type of work everyone loves, its just not as free at a workplace.

I program Android at home and decide when I want to do the boring parts. Sometimes I make it fun by finding some way I can script or generate the boring, repetitive parts of programing games or layouts. Heck, sometimes I just grind at it with a 6 pack and a good playlist. But at work there's often weeks at a time where I'm forced to do the crap work that no one ever really dreamed of. It needs to get done, it has strict deadlines and I'm not allowed to drink. But it pays me well and its part of the stepping stones to getting to the fun parts.

After spending the amount of time I have on HN I must admit that I am blessed with the position I'm in so I can't complain fully about it but its not fair to say that programming is a job to avoid simply because you're tasked with the crap every so often. For one, you need to earn your stripes to be put in that position where your responsibility and accountability are high enough to get the critical components. The guy right out of school onto the job dreams big but its no different from any trade or job in the world: new guy gets the grunt work. Perhaps its because I spend more time talking with fellow geeks or perhaps we do have a small superiority complex but no one should be fresh into a career thinking they'll be the one doing all the magnificent things you see on the web crafted by experts and superstars of their field. Heck I went through that faze too and I'm still very young but its much easier to see once you interact with the next shipment of grads: I don't hand off the critical work because I don't know they're good for it yet.

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