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The Indian and his insatiable appetite for the college degree

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Re: The Indian and his insatiable appetite for the college degree

#41

Post by kamaal »

BWStearns wrote: post #39
r0h1n wrote: post #30

The fact that a formal engineering/MBA education isn't a prerequisite for business success is almost a tautology now, especially among software startups. So there is nothing new here. There are some half-truths though: > For some reasons, Indians just can’t deal with the fact that someone without pedigree can get somewhere in life. - Airtel, India's largest telecom company, was started by Sunil Mittal, armed with jus…

I would hardly say that he is belittling people in the situation you describe. What he is attempting to discourage is the mentality that sticks to the dogmatic cultural position even in the face of a) historical data indicating that academic pedigree isn't a rock-solid predictor of success, and b) local data indicating a higher than average likelihood of success for the individual in question. This is a specific exam…

>>academic pedigree isn't a rock-solid predictor of success

Definition of success is extremely difficult to be given here.

I will give you a small example. Literacy is a big problem in India. Unfortunately since you can't read or write, your access to information is limited. This puts things like news papers and magazines outside your reach. Access to any kind of information will be weak(Access to information is the most thing for a person in the modern world)- You won't be able to make well informed decisions about anything, your knowledge of current affairs will be weak. Ultimately such a mass of people won't be able to make it big.

This is why basic education should be compulsory. Also these days knowledge of the English language is extremely important to do any work with people of other nations. English is not our native language or mother tongue. So we learn it only in schools.

Re: The Indian and his insatiable appetite for the college degree

#42

Post by r0h1n »

BWStearns wrote: post #39
r0h1n wrote: post #30

The fact that a formal engineering/MBA education isn't a prerequisite for business success is almost a tautology now, especially among software startups. So there is nothing new here. There are some half-truths though: > For some reasons, Indians just can’t deal with the fact that someone without pedigree can get somewhere in life. - Airtel, India's largest telecom company, was started by Sunil Mittal, armed with jus…

I would hardly say that he is belittling people in the situation you describe. What he is attempting to discourage is the mentality that sticks to the dogmatic cultural position even in the face of a) historical data indicating that academic pedigree isn't a rock-solid predictor of success, and b) local data indicating a higher than average likelihood of success for the individual in question. This is a specific exam…

Dissing average Indian middle-class parents for wanting a college education and MNC job for their children, without even a cursory attempt to understand why they do so, is belittling them.

If the author truly wanted to "discourage the mentality" (your words), then he ought to at least have understood the mentality to begin with. Or provided some solid reasons as to why Indian parents ought not to insist on a college education, instead of just his ("upper middle class") isolated example.

Re: The Indian and his insatiable appetite for the college degree

#43

Post by escherba »

I have been pondering about this for a while and have developed a hypothesis as to why Indian parents (and those from similar nations) tend to overvalue college degrees.

It is mostly due to the parents having low self-esteem. It comes down to the following two facts:

(1) While there are plenty of exceptionally capable young individuals like OP who have been proving everyone wrong, it usually takes a lot of parental skill and know-how to produce a wunderkind with social skills necessary to navigate the adult world in a foreign country.

(2) Parents who are recent immigrants (especially from poorer nations or from nations with significant cultural differences from the host nation) do not see themselves as capable of providing that know-how. Note that I did not say they can't provide it -- just that they do not see themselves as capable to (it turns out that more often than not they underestimate themselves).

Therefore, if you are a parent in a similar situation, it (often wrongly) appears to you that the only way your children stand a fighting chance is if you they spend as much time in school as possible. Then, of course, is the social pressure from family friends.

Re: The Indian and his insatiable appetite for the college degree

#44

Post by eksith »

auctiontheory wrote: post #37
eksith wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your unwillingness to accept reality doesn't make reality any less real. Plenty of talented people who have been fortunate enough to have parents that didn't trample their dreams (and potential) have gone one to become successful in their own right without the aid of a degree.

Obviously my humor is wasted on HN.

I apologize if I came off as rude and a bit dense, but it seems you've been on HN long enough to realize, it's a far cry from Reddit (despite frequent mentions to the contrary) and humor is verboten unless it's written in MATLAB.

Re: The Indian and his insatiable appetite for the college degree

#45

Post by anupshinde »

First they got me to go to a college - I really dint want to go - wanted to start "something on my own" - pretty weak argument - I din't have any idea. Then they insisted to go to a Master - bcoz you need to get above the crowd - and I got into one of the best institutes - that made it even harder to dropout even when I knew after 6 months that I was wasting time

Then I jumped into entrepreneurship - And they insisted that I should get a job to get a hands-on experience. I gave up after 8 months - to their preferences - but this is when I started seeing success, but couldn't prove it to them. They didn't see it as "lasting"

Today, even at this moment, I can feel "the burden of giving up" because most people around me "insisted" on doing something I dint want to do. Ultimately, I am to blame.

10 years later - I am pretty successful in my career, with a job. My job is not "secure" as they mentioned. Its not satisfying and frequently frustrating. I know no "other job" can fix that ... I want to take the jump into entrepreneurship again - and I am doing whatever I can. And many times I wish I could undo that mistake I made 10 years back. It is seriously less riskier and easier to start young rather than doing it after you are a husband/father/etc.

As far as Education is concerned - That is important. But Degree! - I know most universities in India will give you degrees that don't speak for your talent/skill. It just shows that you passed your exams - and if you have extra money - some universities will give you a degree without you reading a single line.

Re: The Indian and his insatiable appetite for the college degree

#46

Post by eksith »

auctiontheory wrote: post #40
evincarofautumn wrote: post #33

> Indians just can’t deal with the fact that someone without pedigree can get somewhere in life. I am not Indian, nor have I spent time in India, so I hope I am right in thinking that this speaks to present growing pains in Indian tech culture. I say growing pains because I think, and hope, that this valuation of pedigree over merit is coming to an end, as it is already at an end in parts of the U.S. There are, if I…

There are, if I may say so, a lot of bad Indian programmers. They’re bad not because they’re Indian, of course, but because they don’t really want to be programmers. I observed long ago that (in my Silicon Valley experience) white American programmers were always good programmers, because white Americans only become programmers if they really want to be programmers. The same cannot always be said of other nationaliti…

You're likely going to get some knee-jerk flak from people who misunderstand what you're trying to say, but from experience (I'm ethnic Sinhalese), I can say that this can be attributed to what exactly constitutes "programming" in those cultures (this transcends race and nationality BTW).

If by "programming", you mean putting together a website and the like, then yes, there is a huge swath of people who are semi-qualified to do anything else, but get drafted to do more anyway. If by "programming", you mean problem solving and innovation where writing code is actually one of the last things to be done, then most people will consider that to be a smaller subset.

Re: The Indian and his insatiable appetite for the college degree

#47

Post by thomasd »

kamaal wrote: post #36
udit99 wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The lower middle class person's venture alluded to in the parent comment is most definitely not going to be anything remotely resembling an LLC. These ventures are more like "Autorickshaw Driving" or "neighborhood grocery shack" than "Instagram for dogs". The business is probably not registered anywhere and the loan is obtained at usurious rates from the neighborhood money lender who has the leverage of muscle-power…

Though what you are saying is true. I've found the same even with regards to tech start ups. The situation is no way close to that in the US. In fact even to get anything close to an angel investment you need at least an IIT or an IIM degree. Ask this to anyone trying to bootstrap. Alumni connections are very important, if not that you at least need to be some how networked to a VC. I've had personal experiences with…

> If you are bootstrapping in your side, you will likely work 19 hrs a day and face failure after failure with nearly everyone around finding reasons to make you and your decisions look stupid.

Great point. This is actually not constrained to India but propagate through most of Asia, including the generally rich Singapore. Seems like a favorite "past-time" to watch people fail. It's a society that lives by the saying "the nail that sticks out gets hammered down".

Which is why Silicon Valley is such an attractive place to pursue a startup. The support system is there and there are little social stigma attached to failure.

Failing after putting in all the long hours and weekends is not something that is easy to stomach alone. Failing and having everyone around you rub it in is brutal.

Re: The Indian and his insatiable appetite for the college degree

#48

Post by weland »

r0h1n wrote: post #30

The fact that a formal engineering/MBA education isn't a prerequisite for business success is almost a tautology now, especially among software startups. So there is nothing new here. There are some half-truths though: > For some reasons, Indians just can’t deal with the fact that someone without pedigree can get somewhere in life. - Airtel, India's largest telecom company, was started by Sunil Mittal, armed with jus…

There are many countries, just like India, where exactly the same thing happens. There are countless examples of people who live a wealthy life (this tends to be the common denominator of success in societies where poverty is rampant), but most of the middle- and lower-class inhabitants are convinced you can't get anywhere unless you're at the top of your class.

Folk statistics doesn't work the way you describe it. I know it's frustrating to watch, but it simply is that way.

Re: The Indian and his insatiable appetite for the college degree

#49

Post by aortega »

r0h1n wrote: post #30

The fact that a formal engineering/MBA education isn't a prerequisite for business success is almost a tautology now, especially among software startups. So there is nothing new here. There are some half-truths though: > For some reasons, Indians just can’t deal with the fact that someone without pedigree can get somewhere in life. - Airtel, India's largest telecom company, was started by Sunil Mittal, armed with jus…

>I could go on.

You should, and in the way cite some statistics or else you would be falling for this common logical fallacy:

https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/anecdotal

Re: The Indian and his insatiable appetite for the college degree

#50

Post by anupshinde »

ateevchopra wrote: post #29

I see college as a learning place. A place where you learn about everything but study topics. College is the place where I met my co-founder. It is really a great place where you can meet new talented people, learn how to work in a team. Its a place where you can have fights, fall and learn again. It is the place where you learn to present your Idea by presenting it among your friends first. They can help if you lack…

you said "one of the most reputable colleges in India"... and your statements stand true for those kinda colleges... Let me remind you - those are few - very few.... for all the other colleges - I agree with the author - Those "other" kinda colleges are in huge numbers - they produce quantity without quality and as a result many people see India's out-of-college talent "unusable" ... and they result into bad programmers/(engineers/lawyers/doctors/whatever-profession)... and they also result into bad teachers - and the loop goes on...
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