Spaced repetition for study and learning • Hacker News Board

Re: Spaced repetition for study and learning

#21

Post by bayesianhorse » Sat, Sep 28, 2013, 4:40 PM UTC

Spaced repetition is great for material which is divided into very small chunks and where you have a ton of time for comparatively little information (Vocabulary, especially in languages you are not learning for a degree).

Problems arise in practical situations when you want to pass an exam. Or a couple of them in a certain period of time.

Proponents of SR will say that it takes at least 6 times the amount of time/effort over learning "short term". So if you are learning for an exam, you better have plenty of time to spare. And you better start early, like 6 months before the exam. All that makes it pretty useless in a lot of situations I've been in.

Short term learning isn't as bad as it looks. If you really "cram" for an exam, and you think you forgot all of it a couple of days or weeks later, that's not what happened. Instead, your brain is now primed for the material, and when you come into contact with it later, a lot of information is still there and re-learning will be easier.

Re: Spaced repetition for study and learning

#22

Post by kiba » Sat, Sep 28, 2013, 4:42 PM UTC

mikevm wrote: post #18

I always like sticking to the very best, so SuperMemo was the choice for me. I remember spending a couple of weeks just reading the whole website ( http://www.supermemo.com/ ) because it contained so much interesting information on learning and memorization. It also took a while to understand how to use the program properly because it probably has one of the worst UIs one can imagine ;-). Anyways, I ended up dumping…

That's different from my review session.

I review all the due items in less than 30 minutes, always. Then I fill it up to 30 minutes with new materials, sometime going a few minutes beyond 30 minutes, because the materials sometime requires some time to learn.

Re: Spaced repetition for study and learning

#23

Post by kiba » Sat, Sep 28, 2013, 4:43 PM UTC

bayesianhorse wrote: post #21

Spaced repetition is great for material which is divided into very small chunks and where you have a ton of time for comparatively little information (Vocabulary, especially in languages you are not learning for a degree). Problems arise in practical situations when you want to pass an exam. Or a couple of them in a certain period of time. Proponents of SR will say that it takes at least 6 times the amount of time/ef…

Proponents of SR will say that it takes at least 6 times the amount of time/effort over learning "short term". So if you are learning for an exam, you better have plenty of time to spare. And you better start early, like 6 months before the exam. All that makes it pretty useless in a lot of situations I've been in.

This is a bit of a strawman. If you need to pass an exam quickly, you should and will "cram". Afterward, you can resume your spaced repetition learning.

Re: Spaced repetition for study and learning

#24

Post by [deleted] » Sat, Sep 28, 2013, 4:45 PM UTC

dxhdr wrote: post #16

Spaced repetition, also known as rote memorization, is a terrible way to "learn" anything. The trouble is, you aren't learning at all, you're hacking your brain to force information into it that has no relevance and really doesn't want to be there. It's not a useful or pleasurable activity. It definitely won't make you smarter. Even Mr. Supermemo himself admitted that after FIVE YEARS of constant daily marathon memor…

[deleted]

Re: Spaced repetition for study and learning

#25

Post by thinkersilver » Sat, Sep 28, 2013, 4:49 PM UTC

It's great for learning facts and exploring a subject. Spaced repetition is fascinating. Especially in the realm of language learning. Vocabulary acquisition can be optimised by deciding the right order of words to maximise your ability to read a foreign language text. gwern has a link at the bottom of the article on modelling vocabulary lists as a travelling salesman problem. Feeding this into SRS Flashcard program is powerful. I guess one of the big problems ( if speed is your goal) is the creation of the cards themselves. The time to create the card is much greater than the time to learn the card and can be time a sink if you are trying to learn your first 3000 words of language.

Re: Spaced repetition for study and learning

#26

Post by bayesianhorse » Sat, Sep 28, 2013, 4:50 PM UTC

dxhdr wrote: post #16

Spaced repetition, also known as rote memorization, is a terrible way to "learn" anything. The trouble is, you aren't learning at all, you're hacking your brain to force information into it that has no relevance and really doesn't want to be there. It's not a useful or pleasurable activity. It definitely won't make you smarter. Even Mr. Supermemo himself admitted that after FIVE YEARS of constant daily marathon memor…

Exams don't reward critical thinking, they reward you knowing your stuff. Same goes for life. Understanding a topic isn't enough, and for example medical doctors better know more about the diseases they are treating than they understand on an academical level with lots of critical thinking.

This varies in different subjects of course. In computer science and business degrees you just don't have to be able to pull as many details out of your hat as in biology, medicine or law. The effort and work required to master a math-heavy homework assignment can be enough rote memorization.

I've come to think of rote memorization as actually the most natural way to learn in a time efficient manner. I have yet to witness this approach compromising my understanding in any way.

Re: Spaced repetition for study and learning

#27

Post by bayesianhorse » Sat, Sep 28, 2013, 4:54 PM UTC

kiba wrote: post #23

bayesianhorse wrote: post #21

Spaced repetition is great for material which is divided into very small chunks and where you have a ton of time for comparatively little information (Vocabulary, especially in languages you are not learning for a degree). Problems arise in practical situations when you want to pass an exam. Or a couple of them in a certain period of time. Proponents of SR will say that it takes at least 6 times the amount of time/ef…

Proponents of SR will say that it takes at least 6 times the amount of time/effort over learning "short term". So if you are learning for an exam, you better have plenty of time to spare. And you better start early, like 6 months before the exam. All that makes it pretty useless in a lot of situations I've been in. This is a bit of a strawman. If you need to pass an exam quickly, you should and will "cram". Afterward…

For me, exam-focused learning has been the norm, not the exception. I don't hear very often that people use these SR systems continuously for years, and if so, it's usually in language learning

Re: Spaced repetition for study and learning

#28

Post by thinkersilver » Sat, Sep 28, 2013, 5:03 PM UTC

steveridout wrote: post #9

I think spaced repetition software, which typically involves flashcards, is great for memorising a large quantity of facts. E.g. for learning foreign language vocabulary, anatomy, etc... For this kind of learning it can really save you time, especially when you have 100s or 1000s of items to remember. Using flashcards to learn mathematics, computer programming, physics, or anything requiring more creative or analytic…

Hey steveridout, you've got a point there. It's a weakness I've ran into many times when I move away from languages into learning something like statistics or hard algorithms. It's possible, by simplifying the information and using a combination of text and images. The problem when you start doing this is the time it takes to create a deck of cards that make sense. It would be a great idea to be able to use a templating language for your flashcards which you can embed simple rules and plug in a source of data. SRS programs have cloze deletion but it will go much further than that. It may be a good idea for an Anki plugin, perhaps. I hadn't thought about it until just now. ......

Re: Spaced repetition for study and learning

#29

Post by tgb » Sat, Sep 28, 2013, 5:24 PM UTC

steveridout wrote: post #9

I think spaced repetition software, which typically involves flashcards, is great for memorising a large quantity of facts. E.g. for learning foreign language vocabulary, anatomy, etc... For this kind of learning it can really save you time, especially when you have 100s or 1000s of items to remember. Using flashcards to learn mathematics, computer programming, physics, or anything requiring more creative or analytic…

I use it for math at the undergraduate to graduate level and have for over a year, but not super religiously. There are plenty of things in math that benefit from this treatment. It's good to just know definitions, then when you come across something that satisfies it you'll know what to look for to find out more about it. You'll know the exact requirements of theorems so that you don't have to once again look on wikipedia to see that yes this does require a compact set. You'll find a card that says something you've reviewed before but go "wait, why is that true?" and then work out the general idea again. You can memorize known identities that are just plain useful, things that can't be easily Googled but can be easily recognized. You can put warnings to yourself that certain theorems can be easily applied incorrectly. You can learn the most common names for theorems so that it is easier to communicate with others about them.

And above all, it's just another chance to look over things you already should know. I won't claim that it's more or less useful than reading a textbook for the equivalent amount of time or doing problems, but it's certainly more useful than doing nothing.

P.S. Anki has very nice LaTeX support! I don't know about the others, but this is invaluable for math.

Re: Spaced repetition for study and learning

#30

Post by __float » Sat, Sep 28, 2013, 5:33 PM UTC

dxhdr wrote: post #16

Spaced repetition, also known as rote memorization, is a terrible way to "learn" anything. The trouble is, you aren't learning at all, you're hacking your brain to force information into it that has no relevance and really doesn't want to be there. It's not a useful or pleasurable activity. It definitely won't make you smarter. Even Mr. Supermemo himself admitted that after FIVE YEARS of constant daily marathon memor…

As a member of various communities dedicated to language learning, spaced repetition software is very widespread. Languages require memorization, you simply need to remember the words so they eventually become second nature.

Sometimes in life the answer can't be reasoned about, you just have to buckle down and memorize it.