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China to launch space station by 2023

bbc.co.uk

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Re: China to launch space station by 2023

#51

Post by melange »

pavs wrote: post #42
InclinedPlane wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hold on. The US may have many faults, but claiming that it's not "any better" than China in regards to human rights or protection of individual liberties is just asinine. China put down a peaceful protest using tanks . Hundreds of protesters and dissidents were killed. Some by being shot on the spot, some by being run over by tanks, many more by being executed for the crime of protesting the government. People in Chi…

With how many countries did the US engage in pre-emptive wars with false premise and without much if any support from rest of the world in the last few decades, which resulted in 100s of thousands of death? Lets not forget the US financed dictators that killed many more and the topplings of democratically elected governments that resulted in civil wars and more deaths... And now compare that with Chinese record, or d…

True but irrelevant to the parent's point.

Re: China to launch space station by 2023

#52

Post by snowwrestler »

javindo wrote: post #13

Thought I'd comment before the typical anti-Chinese-Engineering brigade shows up. In my opinion, Chinese engineering is a wonder to behold in an era of modern western bureaucracy killing amazing projects. I realise Chinese politics are so far the other way they can be just as bad in different ways, but if China had the same level of bureaucracy as the west their insane Beijing-Shanghai high speed rail link would have…

I think it's dumb to "compete" with a new space station, when the Earth already has a space station that could use some more support and innovation.

I can't wait for China's leadership to get through their "look, we're a power too" phase. The world would be a much better place, and I would argue China would be a better place, if China's leadership was not so obsessed with the optics of whether or not they are a superpower.

The U.S. and Russia spent decades as opposing superpowers, and so what? That's not the culture of the world anymore. Now U.S. astronauts ride to the International Space Station on Russian rockets, and that's ok.

Re: China to launch space station by 2023

#53

Post by mahyarm »

cygwin98 wrote: post #20
podperson wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's only a bit hypocritical. There are actual degrees of hypocrisy! The US constitution frequently prevents the US government (and US State governments) from enacting laws or enforcing previously enacted laws. This can be good or bad depending on your point of view, but it's a simple fact that in the US we have constitutional rights that are actually pretty potent. Do the police in China have to read people their ri…

It's only a bit hypocritical. There are actual degrees of hypocrisy! I don't get this. Did you mean there are 50% hypocrites and 90% hypocrites? And the 50% hypocrites can always laugh it out at the 90% hypocrites, because he/she may think he/she has a moral high ground due to less hypocrisy. Heck, that's mouthful.

It's a matter of degree. The difference between a thief who steals bread, a thief who steals cars and a thief who steals %10 of GDP through political and financial trickery.

Re: China to launch space station by 2023

#54

Post by Retric »

pm90 wrote: post #47
melling wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Probably won't happen. China will probably take a clear lead within a couple decades. There isn't enough return on investment in a space race and the US won't have the extra money. Kudos to China for taking the lead in the 21st century. Look at how they built the world's biggest high-speed rail system in such as short period of time. Next year it will carry more people than the US domestic airlines. http://motherboar…

Really? You're just gonna give up that easily, huh? I don't mean to poke fun at you, but the competitive spirit was what made it possible for America to be where it is now, technologically. That, and a lot of money, of course

The space race is like the race to buld the largest hotdog. Interesting spectacle but horrible ROI. It's a classic even when you win you still lose.

PS: 100% Self sustaining colonies have value but that takes 100,000+ people which nobody is talking abut sending to space any time soon.

Re: China to launch space station by 2023

#55

Post by pavs »

pm90 wrote: post #48
pavs wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With how many countries did the US engage in pre-emptive wars with false premise and without much if any support from rest of the world in the last few decades, which resulted in 100s of thousands of death? Lets not forget the US financed dictators that killed many more and the topplings of democratically elected governments that resulted in civil wars and more deaths... And now compare that with Chinese record, or d…

All good points, but we're talking about how a country treats its _own_ citizens. And in this regards, the US is far better than most other countries, most certainly China.

USA has the highest incarceration rate than any country in the world. I have lived in USA for 12 years of my life, perception of having freedom and actually having freedom is not the same thing. At least from my experience I can tell you that most americans don't even know the difference.

So much so that most americans will somehow find a justification for all the international crimes against humanity that the american government has done over so many years, sleeping well at night thinking their government actually cares about them and their flimsy perception of freedom.

Re: China to launch space station by 2023

#56

Post by rodedwards »

SCAQTony wrote: post #26

A space station is a bad investment for any country. The annual cost of the ISS is $3-billion-year. It will cost an additional 24-billion for the next 6-years to keep it up The total budget cost of the Kepler Spacecraft was $0.6-billion and discovered something like 2,740 planets outside our solar system. The Mars Science Laboratory cost was $2.5-billion and as of last month revealed that Mars once was a habitable pl…

Lets kill two birds with one stone and just land the ISS on the moon. ISS done. Moonbase done.

Re: China to launch space station by 2023

#57

Post by lallysingh »

readme wrote: post #40
noselasd wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You explained how much it costs, which is a lot, but not why it's a bad investment. We get quite a lot of tech and science out of the space statio + the experience to go further.

It won't be a bad investment when some aliens come to visit. At least they won't think we're that stupid.

Depends on the alien, no? They might think we should've just built more supercomputers and colliders, and predicted everything else out from there.

Re: China to launch space station by 2023

#58

Post by ianstallings »

cygwin98 wrote: post #11
bayesianhorse wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Chinese call one of theses lists their constitution.

This is hypocritical. US and the whole Western world is not any better on this.

No, It would be hypocritical if they said unlike the US or the western world. But they never said that.

Re: China to launch space station by 2023

#59

Post by bilbo0s »

snowwrestler wrote: post #52
javindo wrote: post #13

Thought I'd comment before the typical anti-Chinese-Engineering brigade shows up. In my opinion, Chinese engineering is a wonder to behold in an era of modern western bureaucracy killing amazing projects. I realise Chinese politics are so far the other way they can be just as bad in different ways, but if China had the same level of bureaucracy as the west their insane Beijing-Shanghai high speed rail link would have…

I think it's dumb to "compete" with a new space station, when the Earth already has a space station that could use some more support and innovation. I can't wait for China's leadership to get through their "look, we're a power too" phase. The world would be a much better place, and I would argue China would be a better place, if China's leadership was not so obsessed with the optics of whether or not they are a super…

Well...

to be fair...

China has to build their own space station because the US objected to China's participation in the ISS program.

Re: China to launch space station by 2023

#60

Post by ChuckMcM »

bdamm wrote: post #49
ChuckMcM wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I find China a particularly fascinating country in this regard, very little true visibility into their capabilities and a very different culture. When they said they would put a man on the moon, I believed they would do everything they could to make that happen. A friend of mine disagreed saying it was "too expensive", except expense doesn't really work at the nation state level except in terms of understanding alloc…

This implies a fuel mining and refinery process that is off-planet. Otherwise, you have to launch the fuel, and that is an extremely expensive prospect. If a mission is going to be engineered to operate for a long period of time, you'd either launch the mission with all the fuel it needs or plan refueling launches specifically for that mission, as is done with the ISS. So, who will be the first to mine off-world and…

Actually not at all. It implies you can send cost reduced rockets up with tanks filled with cryogenic fuels (LH/LOX), if you lose them their cost is amortized over all the expensive rockets you didn't have to send up with a full fuel load.

One of the most interesting talks at the AMW conference one year was ULA talking about cryogenic fuel depots [1]. Not Hydrazine, these are not hypergolic fuels just "regular" liquid oxygen and hydrogen.

The change in the cost dynamics is quite compelling though. Consider a 'space tug' which is in orbit and only needs fuel to meet up with a satellite, and move it into any orbit (supply the 'delta V' as it were). Now launching a satellite doesn't have 'launch windows' nor is it constrained by geography. Costs go down, response rate goes up.

Going to the moon and back? No need to launch all the fuel you need. A vehicle that 'lives' in orbit can take your service module/lunar module and put it on a trans-lunar injection orbit with enough gas to land and return. Catch you on the return and put you in an orbit ready for re-entry.

[1] http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd...

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