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At 16, Ganesh got a job in Qatar. Two months later he was dead

theguardian.com

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Re: At 16, Ganesh got a job in Qatar. Two months later he was dead

#141

Post by snambi »

waps wrote: post #21
camus wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is legalized slavery. These middle eastern countries are well known for that. That's why they are recruiting the poorest of the poor from rural areas in Asia. Foreign workers have 0 rights there. But hey these guys are US allies,the leader of democracy and the free world... they cant be bad , can they ...

Not the middle eastern countries. This is part of their legal system, which is called "islam", or "sharia" (translation: the right way for a muslim). Slavery (if you define it as forced labour without compensation), in case anyone doesn't know, is part of every religion. It is even part of Christianity, but Canon law specifies that it is a Christian's duty to, firstly, never own slaves themselves (with serious punish…

Wow... didn't know middle eastern countries (Islamic) legalize slavery. Can they catch someone in their country or outside of their country and make them a slave?

Re: At 16, Ganesh got a job in Qatar. Two months later he was dead

#142

Post by waps »

gjm11 wrote: post #114
waps wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let me google that for you : http://library.thinkquest.org/10320/Tour.htm The English colonist in the New World imported white indentured workers at first, but found there weren't enough of them. The Indians in the Americas refused to work or proved to be poorly fitted for long hours of hard labor. The Europeans found it easier and cheaper to import Africans as slaves. By the seventeenth century, the African slave tr…

As I said: > I have been able to find a few references to "black gold" meaning slaves I am not claiming that no one has ever used the term to mean slaves. What I am disputing is (1) your claim that in the 19th and 20th centuries the term was popular with this main meaning, and (2) your claim that it had anything to do with Islam. On #1, I find that the term was extremely rare until it started being used to describe o…

Black gold used to mean the slave trade towards America and within the British Empire and the Dutch. What does that have to do with Islam : simple. Who did they buy the slaves from ? The Ottoman empire.

Most kidnapped slaves never did end up in the western slave trade by the way, but were instead kidnapped into north africa and the middle east (which was the effective center of the muslim empire, they even relocated mecca into africa). Almost none of them survived, and today with a few small exceptions no significant numbers of those slaves survive.

Re: At 16, Ganesh got a job in Qatar. Two months later he was dead

#143

Post by smsm42 »

kamaal wrote: post #78
smsm42 wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>>> People like these should think about their own morals before talking about somebody else's. People like Winston Churchill can't think anything because they, like Winston Churchill, have been dead for decades. And in all civilized countries slavery has long been illegal. So if in one country - namely Qatar - institution of slavery still exists, Churchill quote from the thirties is not actually a good way to preven…

>>People like Winston Churchill can't think anything because they, like Winston Churchill, have been dead for decades. They could think when they were alive. To talk about freedom and morals, when your own country has set up colonies all round the globe and committing atrocities is hypocrisy.

US and Europe have some black pages in their histories, that is true. Not that they are unique in that - we all know about slaves being brought into the US, but I encourage you to look up who was selling those slaves and where the centers of the slave trade were located and how much of power in Africa and Middle East depended on selling the slaves - but with all that, the past can not be denied. However, for US and Europe is is the past and slavery has been long recognized as immoral, unacceptable and evil. In Qatar, the slavery exists today. It is not hypocritical at all to call Qatar out today and tell them that in 21th century we don't do these things. Even if people did it some time ago. We grew past that, and it's time for Qatar to do the same.

Re: At 16, Ganesh got a job in Qatar. Two months later he was dead

#144

Post by dvmmh »

projectramo wrote: post #134

Slavery in Qatar has nothing to do with religion. This is the equivalent of taking some example of modern day slavery (say the 20 million alleged http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/06/19/19042103-modern-d... ) and then saying this is part of US history. Saying slavery is inherently Islamic is like saying slavery is inherently American. And then for proof, going over centuries of quotes about slaves, beatings of sla…

"That what is happening is a matter of individual greed and not some systemic mind control."

No. The fact that the local populace doesn't care at all and encourages it, means that it is a HUGELY systemic problem.

Re: At 16, Ganesh got a job in Qatar. Two months later he was dead

#145

Post by waps »

flumbaps wrote: post #122
Mikeb85 wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Islam absolutely contains a set of laws. For the Muslim, you cannot have the religion without the law. Even in countries where Islam is the minority, disputes between Muslims are settled by a community Islamic court...

Please read again. I have not denied that Islam contains a set of laws. I said that Islam is not exactly equal to a set of laws. Which is correct. I've also stated that, in practical terms, it is the behaviour and beliefs of the religious leaders that matter more that the laws themselves. The community Islamic courts you cite are a perfect example of this. You seem to expect them to behave according to some monolithi…

1) many muslims disagree that there is a difference between islam and sharia. The word itself disagrees with your assessment. Besides, ever met a muslim that didn't care what halal was ? Ever wondered what "halal" refers to. These people that call themselves muslim use the sources I referred to as guidance on what is halal, they do not decide for themselves.

2) slavery, incuding kidnapping people, even children into slavery is halal. So is raping them. Yes there's limits to exactly who, when and where, but frankly that doesn't matter to the morality of that. Halal = morally reprehensible.

3) Even seemingly stupid parts of the islamic faith, like halal food (practiced by the vast majority of muslims), you're going to find discriminatory/racist at best (religious discrimination in employment, to start with). Even that part is morally reprehensible.

4) I disagree strongly with your assessment that "those who see the West as the devil come from countries where the West has severely harmed in the past through selfish and corrupt interference". Aside from the fact that that statement reads like a conspiracy theory, those hotbeds you refer to are Saudi Arabia, Somalia and Pakistan. In a different way Egypt has been a hotbed. You might be able to build a weak case America has harmed Somalia, but the others have massively benefited from America's influence and help.

I propose instead that those who see the west as the devil come from societies (or at least families) that take islam very seriously and let it guide their life. The stronger the place of islam in their lives, the more hate for everyone they have (not just for America, in case you truly are that naive. Israel, Holland (because there is a whore at every intersection, one Egyptian explained to me not very long ago), France (something about a Jewish school that you just can't repeat, and the "fact" that they support ex-muslims in Lebanon), Ethiopia, Kenia, ...).

> Religious rhetoric aligns itself with realpolitik. It is naive to see it in any other terms.

Everything, including your rhetoric, aligns itself with realpolitik. That's the definition of realpolitik. Your statement is true, but it contains no information, other than what's in the dictionary. Barbie dolls align themselves with realpolitik too, and it is equally naive to see things otherwise.

Re: At 16, Ganesh got a job in Qatar. Two months later he was dead

#146

Post by azth »

marrs wrote: post #132
waps wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Evidence from slaves is rarely viable in a court of law. As slaves are regarded as inferior in Islamic law, death at the hands of a free man does not require that the latter be killed in retaliation.[81] The killer must pay the slave's master compensation equivalent to the slave's value, as opposed to blood-money. At the same time, slaves themselves possess a lessened responsibility for their actions, and receive ha…

Spoken like a true Islamic Extremist. Find the teachings that support your argument and then use them to brand everyone who disagrees with you as not being a true believer. It's a peculiar mind that can ignore the fundamental values of morality and kindness, and go straight for the edge cases that justify your warped sense of righteousness.

Indeed! Even according to Wikipedia which waps was citing: "The Qur'an and Hadith, the primary Islamic texts, make it a praiseworthy act for masters to set their slaves free." goes against his/her claims. Furthermore, most, if not all, of those claims for the status of slaves were cited from Orientalist Levy's book. The bias is very evident.

Re: At 16, Ganesh got a job in Qatar. Two months later he was dead

#147

Post by waps »

brazzy wrote: post #67
waps wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not the middle eastern countries. This is part of their legal system, which is called "islam", or "sharia" (translation: the right way for a muslim). Slavery (if you define it as forced labour without compensation), in case anyone doesn't know, is part of every religion. It is even part of Christianity, but Canon law specifies that it is a Christian's duty to, firstly, never own slaves themselves (with serious punish…

> Islam and specifically the second Caliphate is the only state in history that has a documented history of killing slaves for fun). Ancient Rome would like to disagree. > Slavery (if you define it as forced labour without compensation), in case anyone doesn't know, is part of every religion. Buddhism would like to disagree, probably many more. I'm sure there was forced labor of some kind pretty much everywhere, but…

Ancient Rome did not disagree. If you're referring to the circus, you might want to look up what the deal was gladiators got (and what it meant for their families), if they fought in the arena.

As for Buddha, he had to say a lot on several subjects : 1) the untouchables, effectively slaves (he only found it unjust that people were born into a caste, not that the untouchables existed or were forced to labour without compensation) 2) the fact that the Buddha forbade runaway slaves to join any Buddhist order, is but one of many indications that the Buddha accepted slavery as normal and moral. 3) This is not to say that the Buddha did not advance the state of morality, by saying that a Buddhist is allowed to trade in human beings, but that it would be better not to (he did say, however, that it was allowed, and that interference with it was not allowed). The Buddha did outlaw quite a few things, so I find the argument that he was somehow unaware of this distinction extremely unconvincing.

All Buddhist states I know of, historically, used slavery. Buddhists monasteries used slave labour throughout history, until the English banished it. In fact one of the emperors of China famously put forth an edict, stripping all Buddhist monasteries in his domain of their slaves. It mentions that this affected over 150000 individuals.

This is not abnormal or strange, by the way. All societies around them used slavery, and so did Buddhists.

Re: At 16, Ganesh got a job in Qatar. Two months later he was dead

#148

Post by swalkergibson »

waps wrote: post #145
flumbaps wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please read again. I have not denied that Islam contains a set of laws. I said that Islam is not exactly equal to a set of laws. Which is correct. I've also stated that, in practical terms, it is the behaviour and beliefs of the religious leaders that matter more that the laws themselves. The community Islamic courts you cite are a perfect example of this. You seem to expect them to behave according to some monolithi…

1) many muslims disagree that there is a difference between islam and sharia. The word itself disagrees with your assessment. Besides, ever met a muslim that didn't care what halal was ? Ever wondered what "halal" refers to. These people that call themselves muslim use the sources I referred to as guidance on what is halal, they do not decide for themselves. 2) slavery, incuding kidnapping people, even children into…

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bigotry

You are a bigot.

Re: At 16, Ganesh got a job in Qatar. Two months later he was dead

#149

Post by lake99 »

Tzunamitom wrote: post #139
lake99 wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Islam has nothing to do with it @waps has already posted a link to [1] > start with capitalism Do you think it is "capitalism" when employers are not honouring contracts that they created, and their employees signed? After you have learnt what capitalism means, you'll see that the article is rich with examples of violations of capitalism. I don't know about Indonesia, but India is, not by any stretch of imagination…

Dear Sir, I would love to debate with you. If I did I would point out studies that show the historical necessities of state intervention into laissez-faire capitalism to prevent abuse of asymmetrical relationships, I would point to monopolistic behaviour, and the tendency of an unrestrained capitalistic system to undermine the workings of its own free market. I would draw upon my own experiences of living in the Gulf…

You seem to enjoy making the effort to write all this rhetorical crap! With bits like "historical necessities of state intervention into laissez-faire capitalism to prevent abuse of asymmetrical relationships", I hope you don't claim credit for independent thinking.

Re: At 16, Ganesh got a job in Qatar. Two months later he was dead

#150

Post by swalkergibson »

contingencies wrote: post #37
wavefunction wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is not part of Islam, since you don't find it going on in Malaysia, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Indonesia, Islamic Africa, or the West where muslims live as well. This is instead confined to the Gulf states. I'm really very curious about where you're pulling all this stuff from.

I agree it's not part of Islam. However, effective slavery of foreign workers does go on in those places, often with local or national government conspiracy. Malaysia is a prime example. In the previous article, the family interviewed in Nepal lost one son to construction slavery in Qatar and one to the same in Malaysia. Furthermore, Sharia law has been waved around in the western media as the height of evil (like th…

This is absolutely accurate. Ultimately, it is all about wealth and power and securing the steady stream of oil to power the "American Way."
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