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The shittiest project I ever worked on

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Re: The shittiest project I ever worked on

#51

Post by AndyKelley »

adamconroy wrote: post #50
fusiongyro wrote: post #22

> In 1995 I quit my regular job as senior web engineer You had the job title "senior web engineer" when the web was 4 years old. That's pretty cool.

Sorry if it reduces self-esteem, but we (software developers) are not engineers. I've been brainwashed for many years by my brother, who is a Phd civil engineer, that professions that hijack the term engineer are kidding themselves. I know it sounds cool, and my current title is 'Senior Software Engineer', but it is all a scam.

I'm not convinced. Care to make a case?

Re: The shittiest project I ever worked on

#52

Post by misterjangles »

nostrademons wrote: post #46
misterjangles wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The tricky part is often convincing a client that pre-planning is a necessary part if the process and, though it is billable time, will ultimately save money. Many client don't appreciate that programming is not just writing code. Also you can wind up meeting and planning yourself right out of a gig sometimes - which is fine if the gig wasn't truly necessary. But can be bad for your business if you spend hundreds of…

If you're billing time & materials (which might be a good idea for a contract of indefinite scope), you'd still get paid for the time spent doing due diligence. You might even be able to sell a time & materials contract on the basis that it gives you an incentive to point out simpler solutions that require less maintenance even if they involve using competing off-the-shelf products.

Exactly. Good clients will understand "hey, this guy just saved us $150k". Bad clients will think "I just paid a programmer to do nothing!"

Learning to recognize and get rid of those bad clients (or convert them into good clients) is a skill that can take a while to learn.

Re: The shittiest project I ever worked on

#53

Post by bionerd »

kamaal wrote: post #28

For those who don't know about the author of this post. His name is Mark Jason Dominus, the author of one the most awesome programming book that one can ever read. Higher Order Perl, is available for free download. If you read it you will see some amazing insights into programming techniques most people would have never heard of encountered in MegaCorp jobs. You will also grow a great appreciation for Perl in general…

I know it's probably totally unnecessary but still, here's a link to the free download page of the book [1].

Together with Modern Perl (also free for download [2]) this book completely changed my view of Perl. It helped me see through the misconceptions built (most of the times unintentionally) around this language and made me even switch from Python to Perl.

If you're interested, spend a few minutes browsing through one of these books. I think you'll like what you see.

[1] http://hop.perl.plover.com/book/#PDF

[2] http://onyxneon.com/books/modern_perl/

Re: The shittiest project I ever worked on

#54

Post by kjackson2012 »

fusiongyro wrote: post #22

> In 1995 I quit my regular job as senior web engineer You had the job title "senior web engineer" when the web was 4 years old. That's pretty cool.

I find it hard to believe. In 1995 people barely knew what the internet was. I was accessing the internet through Trumpet Winsock on Windows 3.11 and had a 14.4k modem.

The idea that Time Warner already had a sophisticated Web division smells like BS to me. I would accept 1997 or 1998, but not 1995.

Re: The shittiest project I ever worked on

#55

Post by nostrademons »

adamconroy wrote: post #50
fusiongyro wrote: post #22

> In 1995 I quit my regular job as senior web engineer You had the job title "senior web engineer" when the web was 4 years old. That's pretty cool.

Sorry if it reduces self-esteem, but we (software developers) are not engineers. I've been brainwashed for many years by my brother, who is a Phd civil engineer, that professions that hijack the term engineer are kidding themselves. I know it sounds cool, and my current title is 'Senior Software Engineer', but it is all a scam.

It's kinda ironic, but my girlfriend's business school classmates (most of whom are electrical, mechanical, or chemical engineers) seem to think that software engineers are at the top of the engineering totem pole. Something about being the only engineering subdiscipline that's paid what they're worth. If it's a scam, it seems to be working.

Re: The shittiest project I ever worked on

#56

Post by zizee »

adamconroy wrote: post #50
fusiongyro wrote: post #22

> In 1995 I quit my regular job as senior web engineer You had the job title "senior web engineer" when the web was 4 years old. That's pretty cool.

Sorry if it reduces self-esteem, but we (software developers) are not engineers. I've been brainwashed for many years by my brother, who is a Phd civil engineer, that professions that hijack the term engineer are kidding themselves. I know it sounds cool, and my current title is 'Senior Software Engineer', but it is all a scam.

Whilst all people who have the title "Software Engineer" are not engineers, it does not mean there are no Software Engineers.

Re: The shittiest project I ever worked on

#58

Post by neilk »

kjackson2012 wrote: post #54
fusiongyro wrote: post #22

> In 1995 I quit my regular job as senior web engineer You had the job title "senior web engineer" when the web was 4 years old. That's pretty cool.

I find it hard to believe. In 1995 people barely knew what the internet was. I was accessing the internet through Trumpet Winsock on Windows 3.11 and had a 14.4k modem. The idea that Time Warner already had a sophisticated Web division smells like BS to me. I would accept 1997 or 1998, but not 1995.

It was called Pathfinder, and it launched in 1994.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pathfinder_(web_site)

It was not sophisticated by today's standards, but it was one of the first real magazine sites on the web. Here are some screenshots.

http://www.disobey.com/ghostsites/pathfindermuseum/index.sht...

Re: The shittiest project I ever worked on

#59

Post by lotyrin »

LordHumungous wrote: post #29
kabisote wrote: post #17

> These days I would handle this easily; after the first or second iteration I would explain the situation: I had based my estimate on certain expectations of how much work would be required; I had not expected to clean up dirty data in eight different formats; they had the choice of delivering clean data in the same format as before, renegotiating the fee, or finding someone else to do the project. Great advice for…

An hourly rate has the effect of focusing the client's mind a bit.

I find that fixed bids they try to take me for a ride, time and materials they are afraid to spend time with me to figure out what they actually want.

I have yet to find a customer unwilling to try to doom their own project or a compensation strategy that reliably prevents it - its just tons of work and communication. Unfortunately I'm just an okay coder and most people seem like they actually want a code talk therapist.

Re: The shittiest project I ever worked on

#60

Post by adamconroy »

nedwin wrote: post #45
adamconroy wrote: post #38

Sounds like poor contract negotiation more than anything. Fixed quotes are very tricky things to navigate. I simply don't go there. If the client insists then I try to negotiate a fixed budget, then when the budget us running dry they can extend the budget or reduce scope. If they don't agree to that I walk.

So you would take on a project if they kept paying you per hour, even if the end result was useless?

Well to answer that I would need some context. Like :

a) Do I need the cash and is the market quiet at the time? b) Are there some other opportunities that might result? c) Is the hourly rate way higher than I could get somewhere else? d) Is the tedium only short term? e) Am I gaining some significant skills / experience? f) Did I give my word to do the job?

If the answer to any of the above is yes, I may well accept the project or continue on with the project, otherwise I would move on.

I remember when I was working in London, I was on the same contract for 2 years. About 9 months out from the end they extended my contract and we were asked to build a prototype of a system that automated a lot of human elements of the original system we built. We built the prototype, and it was very good, but the funding was pulled and most people left the project. By that stage I was about 4 months from my visa running out, and there was no work to do. So I stayed on and did nothing but about 30 minutes of support work per day and the rest of the time worked on pet projects and amused myself. I felt a little bad about it, as I was earning $120/hr, but I may well have been screwed if I tried to find work with only a few months left on my visa.

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