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Is College Worth It?

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Re: Is College Worth It?

#91

Post by Zimahl »

randomdata wrote: post #82
Zimahl wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is that assertion based on more than emotion? Emotion? It's based on honest assessment. Please show me one architecture firm who will hire a self-taught architect or an aeronautical company that will hire a self-taught aeronautical engineer. Other careers are simply unable to attain without the resources of universities because you can't practice the craft to even begin to be proficient. The offset in the percentages…

An honest assessment of all STEM jobs, based on the definition given in the linked paper, or just an honest assessment of the 50% of STEM jobs that do require a degree? I expect you are right that architects and aeronautical engineers do more often than not require a degree, but that just places them in the other 50%. It does not invalidate the study. Even still, when ~70% of the population do not have degrees, it se…

Even still, when ~70% of the population do not have degrees, it seems insidious to say that programming is one of the few professions that do not require a degree.

I never once said that few professions do not require a degree. The article is about whether college is necessary and I said it was necessary for a number of professions due to the difficulty of getting instruction outside of a university.

You are getting hung up on the word "require". Yes, being a doctor requires a license which is vetted by degree. I'm saying that being a chemist (a US chemist, not the UK version of a pharmacist) doesn't require a degree per se, however, you are going to need to head to a university to be able to get the instruction and resources to be able to properly learn as they are both prohibitively unavailable externally.

Again, I struggle to think of more than a few professions that actually do require a degree, even if arbitrarily.

If you are able to think of very few that require a degree (both directly or indirectly), outside of IT, what are those? And please limit yourself to professions that are spawned from degrees. A carpenter, electrician, etc., are not taught at colleges.

Re: Is College Worth It?

#92

Post by randomdata »

Zimahl wrote: post #91
randomdata wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

An honest assessment of all STEM jobs, based on the definition given in the linked paper, or just an honest assessment of the 50% of STEM jobs that do require a degree? I expect you are right that architects and aeronautical engineers do more often than not require a degree, but that just places them in the other 50%. It does not invalidate the study. Even still, when ~70% of the population do not have degrees, it se…

Even still, when ~70% of the population do not have degrees, it seems insidious to say that programming is one of the few professions that do not require a degree. I never once said that few professions do not require a degree. The article is about whether college is necessary and I said it was necessary for a number of professions due to the difficulty of getting instruction outside of a university. You are getting…

> If you are able to think of very few that require a degree (both directly or indirectly), outside of IT, what are those? And please limit yourself to professions that are spawned from degrees. A carpenter, electrician, etc., are not taught at colleges.

I feel like you are moving the posts again to support your argument. In the context of promoting going to college, you have to look at the jobs that everyone will be doing. If 100% of the population had a STEM degree, 100% of the population will not be doing STEM jobs. That is not how it works.

Agriculture comes to mind as a university accredited program, and while I'm sure it can be useful, you do not need a degree in agriculture to be a successful farmer. So, what makes a profession spawn from a degree? An electrician's job is deeply rooted in the research done by physicist and electrical engineers, so why does it not count?

Perhaps it is only those doing cutting edge research who should be counted as a degree-spawned profession? I would be on board with that definition. Reimplementing someone else's algorithm that you learned in a CS program always seemed more like being a carpenter anyway. The people creating new algorithms that have never been seen before are in a different class. Keep in mind that you're also talking about a tiny fraction of the population actually doing that kind of work though, and those types of jobs are almost impossible to get unless you are the best of the best. Promoting more people to get a degree is not going to improve that situation.

Speaking of electrical engineering, there was an article in a national newspaper a month or two ago about the top jobs (pay wise) for people without degrees, and electrical engineer was near the top of the list. Programming and IT work did not even make the cut at all.

Re: Is College Worth It?

#93

Post by GFischer »

mathattack wrote: post #3

The schools doing well didn't surprise me. $120K for a Petroleum Engineer - wow!

I was talking to the parent of a boy near college age recently, and he said he's trying to steer his boy off a CS degree, and into one of the lesser studied Engineering careers.

In my country, a relatively inexperienced Mechanical Engineer or Agronomist or Petroleum Engineer makes between 200% to 400% the salary of a CS graduate the same age, and they have no salary "glass ceiling" (CS graduates are not considered for management positions and are topped off as employees here).

Re: Is College Worth It?

#94

Post by Zimahl »

randomdata wrote: post #92
Zimahl wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even still, when ~70% of the population do not have degrees, it seems insidious to say that programming is one of the few professions that do not require a degree. I never once said that few professions do not require a degree. The article is about whether college is necessary and I said it was necessary for a number of professions due to the difficulty of getting instruction outside of a university. You are getting…

> If you are able to think of very few that require a degree (both directly or indirectly), outside of IT, what are those? And please limit yourself to professions that are spawned from degrees. A carpenter, electrician, etc., are not taught at colleges. I feel like you are moving the posts again to support your argument. In the context of promoting going to college, you have to look at the jobs that everyone will be…

I feel like you are moving the posts again to support your argument. ... An electrician's job is deeply rooted in the research done by physicist and electrical engineers, so why does it not count?

Moving the posts? The posts for this entire argument start and end with college. You can't argue that college is worth it for a profession if a college doesn't teach the profession to begin with.

So, if one were to become an electrician is college worth it? No. If one were to become a physicist or electrical engineer, that is the question.

Agriculture comes to mind as a university accredited program, and while I'm sure it can be useful, you do not need a degree in agriculture to be a successful farmer.

The degree from universities for agriculture is typically more of an agri-business degree. No, you probably don't need it to farm and be successful. But, once again, to the root of the article, is college worth it to gain some insight into the business of agriculture?

Speaking of electrical engineering, there was an article in a national newspaper a month or two ago about the top jobs (pay wise) for people without degrees, and electrical engineer was near the top of the list. Programming and IT work did not even make the cut at all.

It's hard to comment on the validity of an article without a link. I find it hard to believe that many people could get their foot in the door without a degree. I assume you are remembering incorrectly and the job was electrician since that is typically a top non-degree profession.

Re: Is College Worth It?

#95

Post by randomdata »

Zimahl wrote: post #94
randomdata wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you are able to think of very few that require a degree (both directly or indirectly), outside of IT, what are those? And please limit yourself to professions that are spawned from degrees. A carpenter, electrician, etc., are not taught at colleges. I feel like you are moving the posts again to support your argument. In the context of promoting going to college, you have to look at the jobs that everyone will be…

I feel like you are moving the posts again to support your argument. ... An electrician's job is deeply rooted in the research done by physicist and electrical engineers, so why does it not count? Moving the posts? The posts for this entire argument start and end with college. You can't argue that college is worth it for a profession if a college doesn't teach the profession to begin with. So, if one were to become a…

> You can't argue that college is worth it for a profession if a college doesn't teach the profession to begin with.

I disagree. There is a lot of indication that we already have more people with degrees than jobs that require degrees (in all variations of the word require). If you are going to promote the value of eduction, you have to think about what those people are actually going to be doing with that education once they leave academia. It is not simply a matter of: Have degree in basket weaving = weaving basket career.

> But, once again, to the root of the article, is college worth it to gain some insight into the business of agriculture?

It very well might be worth it, but that is a long way from saying it is required, which is the context of this discussion.

> I find it hard to believe that many people could get their foot in the door without a degree.

Given that electrical "engineering" (i.e. you won't become a PE) is taught at the community college level, I'm not sure why you would think that way. Clearly there is a demand for people in this sector without the college education and degree that goes with it.

Re: Is College Worth It?

#96

Post by Zimahl »

randomdata wrote: post #95
Zimahl wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel like you are moving the posts again to support your argument. ... An electrician's job is deeply rooted in the research done by physicist and electrical engineers, so why does it not count? Moving the posts? The posts for this entire argument start and end with college. You can't argue that college is worth it for a profession if a college doesn't teach the profession to begin with. So, if one were to become a…

> You can't argue that college is worth it for a profession if a college doesn't teach the profession to begin with. I disagree. There is a lot of indication that we already have more people with degrees than jobs that require degrees (in all variations of the word require). If you are going to promote the value of eduction, you have to think about what those people are actually going to be doing with that education…

It very well might be worth it

Therefore, you answered the question of 'Is College Worth It?'. It is, for some professions. Thank you for agreeing with me.

Given that electrical "engineering" (i.e. you won't become a PE) is taught at the community college level, I'm not sure why you would think that way. Clearly there is a demand for people in this sector without the college education and degree that goes with it.

Is community college not college? Are associate degrees not degrees? Hence, you'd still need a professional education to get your foot in the door.

but that is a long way from saying it is required, which is the context of this discussion.

At no point did I, nor the article, argue that degrees should be required for any specific profession. I'm having trouble arguing with someone that doesn't understand what is being argued in the first place. At this point I think you are simply trolling so I bid you good day.

Re: Is College Worth It?

#97

Post by yetanotherphd »

sanxiyn wrote: post #71
yetanotherphd wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>In other words, the data is correlational, and not based on random assignment to an experimental condition and control condition. If you would like to see studies that use random or quasi-random selection into education, there is a huge literature in labor economics on this topic. For various reasons such literature would never make it onto HN. See a very brief summary here http://www.stlouisfed.org/publications/re/…

Now I am curious. Why would such literature never make it onto HN? (And eh... didn't you just make it onto HN?!) Thank you for the link anyway.

By "make it onto HN" I mean as a story - the comments tend to be much more varied.

Mainstream economic research covers very similar topics, and uses very similar methods, to stories that make it onto HN. However since it isn't sold as "using data in cool ways", it's not immediately apparent that it is HN material. For example, a very famous economics paper uses school district boundaries to measure some effect (can't remember exactly what they measure). The idea is that people on opposite sides of boundaries should on average be very similar except for being in different districts. This hypothesis can be checked by looking for measurable jumps across boundaries.

Another thing is that economics papers tend to use regression methods that look quite boring and don't involve interesting scatter plots. So to the untrained eye a blog post with scatter diagrams and maps can look like a novel use of data and technology, while in fact the methods are very standard.

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