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Urbit: A clean-slate functional OS

urbit.org

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Re: Urbit: A clean-slate functional OS

#51

Post by Touche »

urbit wrote: post #48
cldr wrote: post #45

> Hoon is a keyword-free language - any alphanumeric text in the program is part of the program. Where other languages have reserved words, Hoon has squiggles. But... why?

You're saying, why are reserved words a bad idea? I think most defenders of the humble reserved word would consider it, at best, a hack. Maybe it's a necessary hack, maybe not. With reserved words you are overloading two very different namespaces, the space of language primitives and the space of user functions/variables. Sure, you can get away with this. But do you want to? A language is a UI, and the potential for…

Lisp has no reserved words.

Re: Urbit: A clean-slate functional OS

#52

Post by urbit »

tomrod wrote: post #29
nutate wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To build your startup? No. To have fun? Why not.

I should rephrase my question: on what technology platforms would one use Nock and Hoon? Embedded systems? Anything (due to "portability")?

Here's one way to think about it.

You have a Facebook profile, right? That's essentially a special-purpose cloud computer - a cloud information appliance. But, wouldn't it be cool to have an actual personal computer in the sky? Where "Facebook" or whatever would just be... a program on that computer?

You can get a Linux box in the sky, easy. But... that's 15 million lines of code you're wrangling. On a network which makes Helm's Deep look like Mayberry.

So, if it's your home in the cloud, it's not a cute little bungalow in the cloud. It's a giant castle in the cloud guarded by experienced professional elf ninja warriors. And ya know, even experienced professional elf ninja warriors, when they're off duty, like to let their hair down and not be thinking about orcs every other minute.

So if you want the bungalow in the cloud, you need basically a new programming/execution environment, and oh also a new network. So basically a new everything. So, a person could despair, or he could go build a new everything...

Re: Urbit: A clean-slate functional OS

#53

Post by cldr »

urbit wrote: post #48
cldr wrote: post #45

> Hoon is a keyword-free language - any alphanumeric text in the program is part of the program. Where other languages have reserved words, Hoon has squiggles. But... why?

You're saying, why are reserved words a bad idea? I think most defenders of the humble reserved word would consider it, at best, a hack. Maybe it's a necessary hack, maybe not. With reserved words you are overloading two very different namespaces, the space of language primitives and the space of user functions/variables. Sure, you can get away with this. But do you want to? A language is a UI, and the potential for…

I'm not asking why reserved words are a bad idea, just opining that I think having 100 single- and double-character symbols might not be the best UI for a language. Why not have just names (neither reserved like keywords nor inscrutable like symbols?)

I don't know, I am similarly annoyed by mathematicians because they usually use single letters for variables. It's a little more excusable for them because math functions are usually very short and have few variables, but still I'd rather use words. But I digress.

Re: Urbit: A clean-slate functional OS

#54

Post by urbit »

Touche wrote: post #51
urbit wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're saying, why are reserved words a bad idea? I think most defenders of the humble reserved word would consider it, at best, a hack. Maybe it's a necessary hack, maybe not. With reserved words you are overloading two very different namespaces, the space of language primitives and the space of user functions/variables. Sure, you can get away with this. But do you want to? A language is a UI, and the potential for…

Lisp has no reserved words.

Yes, but Hoon would need them. Lisp gets a lot of things for free because it's based on the lambda calculus, which some regard as trivial but I don't.

So, for example, lambda in Hoon is not a primitive but a relatively high-level built-in macro. This means it is part of a larger family of lambda-like things, many of which are (IMHO) quite useful. On the other hand, all these things demand either reserved words, digraphs or Unicode glyphs.

Re: Urbit: A clean-slate functional OS

#55

Post by urbit »

cldr wrote: post #53
urbit wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're saying, why are reserved words a bad idea? I think most defenders of the humble reserved word would consider it, at best, a hack. Maybe it's a necessary hack, maybe not. With reserved words you are overloading two very different namespaces, the space of language primitives and the space of user functions/variables. Sure, you can get away with this. But do you want to? A language is a UI, and the potential for…

I'm not asking why reserved words are a bad idea, just opining that I think having 100 single- and double-character symbols might not be the best UI for a language. Why not have just names (neither reserved like keywords nor inscrutable like symbols?) I don't know, I am similarly annoyed by mathematicians because they usually use single letters for variables. It's a little more excusable for them because math functio…

It's a different approach to learning that I think favors the actual learning curve, not the perceived learning curve.

Your brain is actually built to memorize symbols like this. (I feel I know the learning process pretty well because I have toddler-aged kids who are also learning Chinese.) Of course, kids are not grownups, but even for grownups the process of binding symbol->meaning is easier than it looks like it should be.

Also, when you have name->meaning, the name inevitably is chosen for orthographic reasons and supplies its own meaning, which may mislead from the actual definition of the primitive. If you bind a symbol directly to a semantics, you lose this source of confusion. It is replaced (ideally) by an odd sense of "seeing the function," which I think is also present in experienced Perl ninjas.

Re: Urbit: A clean-slate functional OS

#57

Post by yebyen »

I distinctly get the impression that the authors of this project will already know what Lojban is. This language (especially when you get to the part about reserved words, actually made up with special characters as runes, and how to pronounce them) made me think of the structure of Lojban right away.

For anyone who hasn't heard of it, http://www.tlg.uci.edu/~opoudjis/lojbanbrochure/lessons/

Urbit of course having the advantage that it can be programmed in... the video is very cool!

Re: Urbit: A clean-slate functional OS

#59

Post by richardlblair »

tomrod wrote: post #29
nutate wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To build your startup? No. To have fun? Why not.

I should rephrase my question: on what technology platforms would one use Nock and Hoon? Embedded systems? Anything (due to "portability")?

As others have pointed out, this is art.

You don't look at art, and ask "Why did you do this??". You simply enjoy it. The artist did it, to do it, and nothing further.

If you can not see this that way, then I am truly sorry.

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