Urbit: A clean-slate functional OS
41–50 of 185 posts
Re: Urbit: A clean-slate functional OS
#42So rather than having a lengthy standard it has lots of small non-standardized and brittle performance optimizations? I remain skeptical over whether this tradeoff is worth it.
IMO this is a really cool idea because the performance optimizations are quite a bit less brittle than the ones you get with a JIT-compiled virtual machine.
Re: Urbit: A clean-slate functional OS
#43A demo video: http://vimeo.com/75312418
Re: Urbit: A clean-slate functional OS
#44A programming language is called a language for a reason - it should activate the human linguistic lobes.
Another programmer said this, a long time ago, and that's how we ended up with Perl. Please don't seek to emulate Larry Wall. Perl is great for quick automation, but anything complicated built with Perl quickly converges to unintelligible line noise (barring the exercise of zen-like discipline). If you're making something for beginners, please, please, give them the tools to build abstractions in a consistent and understandable manner.
Re: Urbit: A clean-slate functional OS
#45But... why?
Re: Urbit: A clean-slate functional OS
#46I love the project concept. A toy functional OS would be an admirable counterpart to e.g. MINIX. That said, I have one minor quibble: A programming language is called a language for a reason - it should activate the human linguistic lobes. Another programmer said this, a long time ago, and that's how we ended up with Perl. Please don't seek to emulate Larry Wall. Perl is great for quick automation, but anything compl…
But that said, the main difference between Hoon line noise and Perl line noise is that most of the ASCII we use has a very regular structure, with a (relatively) limited set of exceptions. So it looks about equally alien at first, but the Hoon ideogram (digraph) set should be easier to learn. Unfortunately at present the set of people who know it is very small - so the theory really hasn't been tested.
It is what it is. But at least there's no Unicode. (Not that you can't have Unicode in strings, of course.)
And anyone who doesn't like line noise has to stand up for reserved words. Some of us welcome that conversation...
Re: Urbit: A clean-slate functional OS
#47I love the project concept. A toy functional OS would be an admirable counterpart to e.g. MINIX. That said, I have one minor quibble: A programming language is called a language for a reason - it should activate the human linguistic lobes. Another programmer said this, a long time ago, and that's how we ended up with Perl. Please don't seek to emulate Larry Wall. Perl is great for quick automation, but anything compl…
Well, of course, Larry Wall is a god. But that said, the main difference between Hoon line noise and Perl line noise is that most of the ASCII we use has a very regular structure, with a (relatively) limited set of exceptions. So it looks about equally alien at first, but the Hoon ideogram (digraph) set should be easier to learn. Unfortunately at present the set of people who know it is very small - so the theory rea…
What about unicode in comments? If I put a string in a comment can it go there?
Re: Urbit: A clean-slate functional OS
#48> Hoon is a keyword-free language - any alphanumeric text in the program is part of the program. Where other languages have reserved words, Hoon has squiggles. But... why?
With reserved words you are overloading two very different namespaces, the space of language primitives and the space of user functions/variables. Sure, you can get away with this. But do you want to? A language is a UI, and the potential for confusing the programmer is immense. If operators and functions are really different things - as they are in Hoon, anyway - it's very confusing to mush them together.
Re: Urbit: A clean-slate functional OS
#49Earlier quoted context omitted.
To build your startup? No. To have fun? Why not.
I should rephrase my question: on what technology platforms would one use Nock and Hoon? Embedded systems? Anything (due to "portability")?
Tldr; this question warrants an answer from someone who knows.
Re: Urbit: A clean-slate functional OS
#50Earlier quoted context omitted.
Well, of course, Larry Wall is a god. But that said, the main difference between Hoon line noise and Perl line noise is that most of the ASCII we use has a very regular structure, with a (relatively) limited set of exceptions. So it looks about equally alien at first, but the Hoon ideogram (digraph) set should be easier to learn. Unfortunately at present the set of people who know it is very small - so the theory rea…
The unicode-in-strings but not in variables/etc bothers me about Java (coming from Go, where unicode is allowed in variables). It seems inconsistent to have two separate character sets for different semantic subsections of what is a single text file. What about unicode in comments? If I put a string in a comment can it go there?
If you put unicode in variables, perhaps because you're using a national keyboard with special unicode powers, your code will be extremely hard to work with for programmers using a different national keyboard. Thus, even if you could do it, you shouldn't.
Now, the symbols on American programmers' keyboards are not all on every keyboard in the world - but pretty much every programmer in the world knows how to find them. Thus, sticking with ASCII is basically sensible use of Postel's Law in the language design context.
In comments - it should be ok but I think it breaks right now. Not a high priority bug, but definitely a bug.