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Chilling legal memo from Obama DOJ justifies assassination of US citizens

theguardian.com

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Re: Chilling legal memo from Obama DOJ justifies assassination of US citizens

#71

Post by jrockway »

yapcguy wrote: post #61
grey-area wrote: post #47

Let's consider a specific example: http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/18/opinion/the-drone-that-kil... The missile killed him, his teenage cousin and at least five other civilians on Oct. 14, 2011, while the boys were eating dinner at an open-air restaurant in southern Yemen...The attorney general, Eric H. Holder Jr., said only that Abdulrahman was not “specifically targeted,” raising more questions than he answered. The…

Good points except for... > an undefined and secret enemy Just this month alone... - Islamic terrorists gun down over 60 people in a shopping mall in Kenya. - Islamic terrorists blow up over 70 people in a church in Pakistan. - Islamic terrorists massacre over 160 travelers in Nigeria. - Islamic terrorists take hundreds hostage in a coastal city in the Philippines.

Islamic terrorists sent mail bombs to a bunch of scientists, bombed the Olympics in Atlanta, and destroyed that federal building in Oklahoma City, too, right?

Re: Chilling legal memo from Obama DOJ justifies assassination of US citizens

#72

Post by dalek_cannes »

deathanatos wrote: post #15
alexeisadeski3 wrote: post #2

In the US, laws against assassination and extrajudicial killing make no distinction between American citizens and others: Foreigners have the exact same protections as citizens. This goes for the Bill of Rights as well. (Aside, this explains why the NSA is only "supposed" to spy outside of the US. Wether the target is a citizen or not is technically irrelevant on this particular point) If you accept that the US is in…

> If you accept that the US is in a war with Al Qaeda Not just Al Quaeda, as the article notes: > the title itself: "Lawfulness of a Lethal Operation Directed Against a US Citizen Who is a Senior Operational Leader of al-Qaida or An Associated Force." "An Associated Force." Don't forget, we're at war with “Al Qaeda, the Taliban, and their associated forces.”[1] Also, > At a hearing in May, Sen. Carl Levin, D-Mich., a…

Lethal Operations, Extraordinary Rendition, Enhanced Interrogation. My God, It's all Newspeak. There should be a constitutional amendment or something mandating that laws should use well understood terms or if that is not possible, clearly define the term before using it.

This language allows these people to say "We're going to kill and torture people without having any proof that they're criminals and we don't have to tell you about it" while making it sound like and extra step of paperwork.

Re: Chilling legal memo from Obama DOJ justifies assassination of US citizens

#73

Post by VladRussian2 »

alexeisadeski3 wrote: post #2

In the US, laws against assassination and extrajudicial killing make no distinction between American citizens and others: Foreigners have the exact same protections as citizens. This goes for the Bill of Rights as well. (Aside, this explains why the NSA is only "supposed" to spy outside of the US. Wether the target is a citizen or not is technically irrelevant on this particular point) If you accept that the US is in…

well, tax laws make distinction between non-Americans and Americans outside of the US. One can see how following the similar reasoning criminal law (or whatever law is the basis for extrajudicial killings (sorry for the oxymoron)) can make similar distinction.

Re: Chilling legal memo from Obama DOJ justifies assassination of US citizens

#74

Post by flumbaps »

aurelius83 wrote: post #22

The other day several american muslims strapped a bomb onto themselves and killed themselves and many innocent people in a suicide attack in Kenya. If there were actual legal mechanisms built into the US constitution or laws created that dealt with fighting an asymmetrical war with people like this then I really doubt the President would go through this process, but that's not the case. I'm not really sure how we sho…

In yearly global death count, terrorism accounts for around 10,000. That would not be a big deal even if all those deaths were in the US (and not scattered over the globe, and mostly in places of high civil unrest). I'm not saying 10,000 deaths isn't sad, but in 2011 a whopping 597,689 Americans died of heart disease. Yet, there aren't secret government enforced exercise camps, are there? There aren't secret courts that shut down McDonalds restaurants without trial, are there? It doesn't matter whether this is an evil plan to grab power by Obama or not. It gives a huge amount of power to the President. If you don't fight it now, that power will never be given back. Each successful president will enjoy the ability to kill of anyone they feel like in secret. Add to that the complicit news organisations, sweeping domestic spying programs and the secret prisons, and you have everything in place for a coup. All it takes now is for the wrong guy to get elected.

Re: Chilling legal memo from Obama DOJ justifies assassination of US citizens

#75

Post by gdwatson »

rhizome wrote: post #68
rob05c wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IMO the real problem is America's Electoral system. Because there is no rank voting, the choices are the warmongering party, the slightly-less-warmongering party, or wasting your vote. Even if the President had more power than it does now, it couldn't get away with these things if citizens had the ability to relevantly vote for another person/party. They would simply vote for whoever else was closest to their beliefs…

Your description doesn't account for a President who doesn't care about getting re-elected. Imagine how much a unitary executive could get away with if they really wanted to. Electoral processes are certainly an issue, but it's distinct from the problem of separation of powers that has enabled Presidents to carve out immense impunities for themselves and their favored. As in nationalized health care, the US should be…

I agree that the president is too powerful, but I don't see how a parliamentary system would fix it. From a separation-of-powers perspective, Commonwealth PMs look very much like elected dictators.

Re: Chilling legal memo from Obama DOJ justifies assassination of US citizens

#76

Post by ZoFreX »

yapcguy wrote: post #61
grey-area wrote: post #47

Let's consider a specific example: http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/18/opinion/the-drone-that-kil... The missile killed him, his teenage cousin and at least five other civilians on Oct. 14, 2011, while the boys were eating dinner at an open-air restaurant in southern Yemen...The attorney general, Eric H. Holder Jr., said only that Abdulrahman was not “specifically targeted,” raising more questions than he answered. The…

Good points except for... > an undefined and secret enemy Just this month alone... - Islamic terrorists gun down over 60 people in a shopping mall in Kenya. - Islamic terrorists blow up over 70 people in a church in Pakistan. - Islamic terrorists massacre over 160 travelers in Nigeria. - Islamic terrorists take hundreds hostage in a coastal city in the Philippines.

I don't know the global stats, but in Europe, 0.5% of terrorist attacks are committed by people who identify as Muslim. Christians and atheists commit way more.

Re: Chilling legal memo from Obama DOJ justifies assassination of US citizens

#77

Post by rhizome »

gdwatson wrote: post #75
rhizome wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your description doesn't account for a President who doesn't care about getting re-elected. Imagine how much a unitary executive could get away with if they really wanted to. Electoral processes are certainly an issue, but it's distinct from the problem of separation of powers that has enabled Presidents to carve out immense impunities for themselves and their favored. As in nationalized health care, the US should be…

I agree that the president is too powerful, but I don't see how a parliamentary system would fix it. From a separation-of-powers perspective, Commonwealth PMs look very much like elected dictators.

"Don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good," and all that.

Re: Chilling legal memo from Obama DOJ justifies assassination of US citizens

#79

Post by dingaling »

gadders wrote: post #65
grey-area wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We don't need to give "due process" to enemy soldiers before we kill them. How are al-Qaeda members different? If you're at war, you should only target enemy fighters in uniform, not civilians, and try to minimise civilian casualties at all times. If you're not at war, people should be tried in open court and found guilty of crimes if they have committed them, not assassinated on suspicion, along with civilians nearb…

If the enemy refuses to wear a uniform? Do we just let them go?

> If the enemy refuses to wear a uniform? Do we just let them go?

The British policy on this, under which I grew up, was to treat such a scenario as a 'police action' wherein military presence was used to bring the situation to a point where the police could intervene.

Certainly troops operated checkpoints, patrolled streets and operated intelligence gathering, but all actions were in assistance to the constabulary. The ROE for line soldiers were extremely strict and even firing in self-defence was not automatically assured. A soldier could pin a suspect on the pavement but only a police officer could arrest him.

Re: Chilling legal memo from Obama DOJ justifies assassination of US citizens

#80

Post by grey-area »

jfoster wrote: post #40
rurounijones wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"It can be a slippery slope". (A) Killing your own citizens with (B) secret laws / justifications using (C) zero / secret "evidence" and (D) No oversight by a group outside of those who are ordering the killings can be a slippery slope? That is not the slippery slope, that is the ditch at the bottom once you have slid all the way down.

If those people were plotting to kill hundreds/thousands of your more innocent citizens, then you could do a lot worse. The problem is where you draw the line.

If those people were plotting to kill hundreds/thousands of your more innocent citizens

And if they weren't?

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