Bill Gates urges fellow rich to share their wealth • Hacker News Board

Re: Bill Gates urges fellow rich to share their wealth

#21

Post by visdo » Fri, Jun 05, 2009, 5:23 PM UTC

Silentio wrote: post #17

swombat wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a thoroughly unfair assessment. It assumes that all wealth is ill-gotten, and that is utterly baseless. Microsoft created and distributed an operating system that brought affordable computing to the masses. They generated enormous wealth for all of mankind, and they did so mostly playing by the rules that were set down for how commerce should be conducted. Certainly, they did some things outside of those rules…

The idea that the wealthy started from nothing and ascribing their wealth to the "hard work" of building from nothing is romantic, but ultimately it's a fantasy. No doubt much individual hard work goes into building a fortune, but the fortune itself owes much more to the labor of thousands, if not millions, of workers, right down to the janitor who sweeps the floor, than it does to the individual who had the next big…

Please leave hacker news, this is not your place.

Re: Bill Gates urges fellow rich to share their wealth

#22

Post by dantheman » Fri, Jun 05, 2009, 5:29 PM UTC

dschobel wrote: post #16

dantheman wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If a charity is deemed unsuccessful people will stop funding it and it will go out of business.

And perversely, if a government program under-performs it get more resources such that it's gotten to the point where some of the worst performing schools in America spend the most money per student. Hopefully Arne Duncan will extend the precedent he set in Chicago by closing schools which consistently under-perform.

I really think the school voucher program where parents can decide where to send their kids will be the best. Heck, you could get on a professor and a assistant to open a one room school house and teach 15 kids. The parents make sure they like the curriculum and that's that. Imagine rapid innovation that could take place if we removed the regulations/certifications and allowed parents to choose.

Re: Bill Gates urges fellow rich to share their wealth

#23

Post by jmatt » Fri, Jun 05, 2009, 5:30 PM UTC

zouhair wrote: post #2

Sounds like the charities of the last king of France and it's followers. People don't need charity, most of those are rich because of huge help of people's money and people's hard work.

The society as a whole can benefit from this kind of philanthropy long after it happens. For instance I directly benefited as a kid from a Carnegie library[1]. Meanwhile Andrew Carnegie is considered a robber baron[2] worse than Gates in most respects. Yet, I'm still grateful for the library. Gates is already wealthy, so at this point I'd rather see him use it for philanthropy rather than create another Rockefeller family trust.

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carnegie_library

[2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robber_baron_(industrialist)

EDIT: Added links.

Re: Bill Gates urges fellow rich to share their wealth

#24

Post by Silentio » Fri, Jun 05, 2009, 5:41 PM UTC

visdo wrote: post #21

Silentio wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The idea that the wealthy started from nothing and ascribing their wealth to the "hard work" of building from nothing is romantic, but ultimately it's a fantasy. No doubt much individual hard work goes into building a fortune, but the fortune itself owes much more to the labor of thousands, if not millions, of workers, right down to the janitor who sweeps the floor, than it does to the individual who had the next big…

Please leave hacker news, this is not your place.

Damn, I guess I will.

Re: Bill Gates urges fellow rich to share their wealth

#25

Post by blhack » Fri, Jun 05, 2009, 6:03 PM UTC

Silentio wrote: post #17

swombat wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a thoroughly unfair assessment. It assumes that all wealth is ill-gotten, and that is utterly baseless. Microsoft created and distributed an operating system that brought affordable computing to the masses. They generated enormous wealth for all of mankind, and they did so mostly playing by the rules that were set down for how commerce should be conducted. Certainly, they did some things outside of those rules…

The idea that the wealthy started from nothing and ascribing their wealth to the "hard work" of building from nothing is romantic, but ultimately it's a fantasy. No doubt much individual hard work goes into building a fortune, but the fortune itself owes much more to the labor of thousands, if not millions, of workers, right down to the janitor who sweeps the floor, than it does to the individual who had the next big…

You're assuming that wealth and money are closed systems.

They are not.

Money is just a universal currency that we all use for work. Do you want a new ipod? Well, apple doesn't trade in man-hours, they trade in dollars. So what you need to do is get a job with somebody that will trade you some of their dollars for your man hours (think of an employer like a currency exchange). Once you have exchanged enough of the currency you have (time) for the currency that the currency exchange (your employer) has (dollars), you can take them to apple and trade them for an iPod.

Apple then reverses the transaction. They take some of the dollars that you gave them, and trade their workers some of the dollars for some of their man-hours.

Dollars are just a common currency. The INPUT (making it a non-closed system) is work.

So no, by creating wealth, you are NOT simply robbing it from people. This is appropriately called "robbery".

There is a slightly longer explanation here:

http://www.gibsonandlily.com/cgi-bin/reply.cgi?thread_id=177...

Re: Bill Gates urges fellow rich to share their wealth

#26

Post by zouhair » Fri, Jun 05, 2009, 6:08 PM UTC

jmatt wrote: post #23

zouhair wrote: post #2

Sounds like the charities of the last king of France and it's followers. People don't need charity, most of those are rich because of huge help of people's money and people's hard work.

The society as a whole can benefit from this kind of philanthropy long after it happens. For instance I directly benefited as a kid from a Carnegie library[1]. Meanwhile Andrew Carnegie is considered a robber baron[2] worse than Gates in most respects. Yet, I'm still grateful for the library. Gates is already wealthy, so at this point I'd rather see him use it for philanthropy rather than create another Rockefeller f…

I didn't say philanthropy is bad, I say that one can survive with $100,000,000 (number pulled out of my arse) and anything more than that should be taxed to make a better life for the majority. And with with this kind of money you can still be a philanthropist.

Re: Bill Gates urges fellow rich to share their wealth

#27

Post by zouhair » Fri, Jun 05, 2009, 6:22 PM UTC

swombat wrote: post #15

Silentio wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Slavoj Zizek's thinking on violence is worth quoting here: "The two faces of Bill Gates parallel the two faces of Soros. The cruel businessman destroys or buys out competitors, aims at virtual monopoly, employs all the tricks of the trade to achieve his goals. Meanwhile, the greatest philanthropist in the history of mankind quaintly asks: 'What does it serve to have computers, if people do not have enough to eat and…

That's a thoroughly unfair assessment. It assumes that all wealth is ill-gotten, and that is utterly baseless. Microsoft created and distributed an operating system that brought affordable computing to the masses. They generated enormous wealth for all of mankind, and they did so mostly playing by the rules that were set down for how commerce should be conducted. Certainly, they did some things outside of those rules…

>...This fundamental principle allows us to move wealth to wherever it's needed, whatever is the next big thing that humanity should be working on. Without them, we would be worse off too, since capital would be badly allocated - for example, to building countless overpriced houses rather than other things....

That's just plain wrong, just look at the endless losses of jobs in the US and other rich countries in the past years, all in the name of profit, see the suffering of most of the World countries under the yoke of the World Bank and the IMF and so on and so on. There is such a thing as a World without capitalism, capitalism is just man made, so it can be replaced.

I don't know who said it but I like it : "Workers don't need a Boss, but a Boss needs Workers". Works with big capitalists.

Re: Bill Gates urges fellow rich to share their wealth

#28

Post by GeneralMaximus » Fri, Jun 05, 2009, 6:25 PM UTC

Silentio wrote: post #17

swombat wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a thoroughly unfair assessment. It assumes that all wealth is ill-gotten, and that is utterly baseless. Microsoft created and distributed an operating system that brought affordable computing to the masses. They generated enormous wealth for all of mankind, and they did so mostly playing by the rules that were set down for how commerce should be conducted. Certainly, they did some things outside of those rules…

The idea that the wealthy started from nothing and ascribing their wealth to the "hard work" of building from nothing is romantic, but ultimately it's a fantasy. No doubt much individual hard work goes into building a fortune, but the fortune itself owes much more to the labor of thousands, if not millions, of workers, right down to the janitor who sweeps the floor, than it does to the individual who had the next big…

Inequality is embedded in capitalism. When the invisible hand moves capital from one place to another, it does not only give, it takes away. For someone like Bill Gates to give as he does, he has to have taken away (you might prefer "created") in the first place.

I, for one, am mortally afraid of living in an "equal" world. Your website tells me you want to pursue a PhD, so let's talk about that. You are a person who has worked hard for achieving your academic goals. Would you like to be considered equal to a person who spent his life partying and clubbing and not giving a shit? Would you like it if someone gave this party animal the PhD you deserve?

Yes, Gates had an advantage. His genius lies in recognizing that advantage, and building on it. Gates came from a rich family. Instead of wasting away what he had, he used that wealth and power and built Microsoft -- one of the most recognized brands on planet Earth.

Mind you, I'm not against philanthropy. Heck, I wish my government spent 100x more cash on building schools in backwards areas, and that a few local millionaires threw some cash in, too. What I'm against is this prevalent notion that people should be "equal". Created equal? Surely. But after that, nobody is equal.

Inequality is good. Inequality makes the world go around.

Re: Bill Gates urges fellow rich to share their wealth

#29

Post by GeneralMaximus » Fri, Jun 05, 2009, 6:26 PM UTC

visdo wrote: post #21

Silentio wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The idea that the wealthy started from nothing and ascribing their wealth to the "hard work" of building from nothing is romantic, but ultimately it's a fantasy. No doubt much individual hard work goes into building a fortune, but the fortune itself owes much more to the labor of thousands, if not millions, of workers, right down to the janitor who sweeps the floor, than it does to the individual who had the next big…

Please leave hacker news, this is not your place.

Hey, this is HN. Everyone has their say. Besides, arguing is fun :)

Re: Bill Gates urges fellow rich to share their wealth

#30

Post by zouhair » Fri, Jun 05, 2009, 6:26 PM UTC

blhack wrote: post #25

Silentio wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The idea that the wealthy started from nothing and ascribing their wealth to the "hard work" of building from nothing is romantic, but ultimately it's a fantasy. No doubt much individual hard work goes into building a fortune, but the fortune itself owes much more to the labor of thousands, if not millions, of workers, right down to the janitor who sweeps the floor, than it does to the individual who had the next big…

You're assuming that wealth and money are closed systems. They are not. Money is just a universal currency that we all use for work. Do you want a new ipod? Well, apple doesn't trade in man-hours, they trade in dollars. So what you need to do is get a job with somebody that will trade you some of their dollars for your man hours (think of an employer like a currency exchange). Once you have exchanged enough of the cu…

And what about the Capital Gain, the salary doesn't cover that. And what about the minority owning the majority of the money. The game is utterly rigged in favour of the powerful.