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How airline reservations are used to target illegal searches

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Re: How airline reservations are used to target illegal searches

#81

Post by Shivetya »

Amadou wrote: post #22
maratd wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I hear that visiting Israel with an Arabic last name, or, god forbid, trying to go visit Palestine from an Israeli airport will land you in all sorts of trouble. I hear that visiting Arab countries with a Jewish last name, or, god forbid, trying to go visit Israel from an Arabian airport will land you in all sorts of trouble. Any particular reason you're picking on one and not the other? A bit hypocritical, don't y…

Israel, and the USA, make a big deal about being representative democracies and champions of human rights. Anytime their deeds don't match their words, criticism is warranted. The Saudis and other monarchy/dictatorships in the middle east don't make any such pretense.

at least Israel has the excuse of having enemies on its borders if not within. Not sure what my country's excuse is other than, we're too big to be failed.

Re: How airline reservations are used to target illegal searches

#82

Post by dtsygankov »

atlanticus wrote: post #80
snitko wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would start with the question of why is it that people need visas. We live on the same earth. We should be allowed to travel wherever we want. It's ridiculous.

The fact that my friends and I can't show up at your house unexpected and stay indefinitely must seem ridiculous to you as well.

When I'm not letting _your_ friends in _my_ house, this is OK, since my house is my property.

When _my_ friends cannot visit me in _my_ house, however, because they are lacking a piece of paper called visa, the world is really messed up.

Re: How airline reservations are used to target illegal searches

#83

Post by dtsygankov »

rayiner wrote: post #62
snitko wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Who are they? How are they different from me? Am I not a part of them? And if 60% of people say it's okay to kill the rest of the 40%, should the 40% submit?

In a democratic society, "they" are the majority. You are a part of them, but you get your one vote and no more. They can bind you without your explicit consent, because at the end of the day they are the ones who protect you from the dangers of other nations, anarchy, etc.

The majority of whom? Do you think the majority of the world would vote that they need a visa to travel to, say, the US?

Also, there's no need to protect me from anarchy, since the exact meaning of the word "anarchy" is "no rulers". I'd rather be protected from _rulers, than from lack of rulers.

Re: How airline reservations are used to target illegal searches

#84

Post by dragonwriter »

ISL wrote: post #9
sbarre wrote: post #3

"DHS lawyers claimed that international travel provides, in and of itself, sufficient Constitutional basis for detention and search of international travellers and the search, seizure and copying of the digital contents of their belongings." Really? Fucking hell.. With every month that goes by, I am less and less inclined to travel to, or do business in, the US.. edit: I'm aware that later in the article they say the…

I often wonder what the founders would think of the modern interpretation of the fourth amendment at our borders. How would they have chosen to balance privacy against security in our age?

I think that many of the founders would probably be more upset by our reflexive resort to suppositions about what the founders would think in discussions of public policy than they would be upset (or supportive) of any particular policy that we find controversial.

Re: How airline reservations are used to target illegal searches

#85

Post by atlanticus »

dtsygankov wrote: post #82
atlanticus wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The fact that my friends and I can't show up at your house unexpected and stay indefinitely must seem ridiculous to you as well.

When I'm not letting _your_ friends in _my_ house, this is OK, since my house is my property. When _my_ friends cannot visit me in _my_ house, however, because they are lacking a piece of paper called visa, the world is really messed up.

Your house is yours because of an agreement with the country you live in.

Re: How airline reservations are used to target illegal searches

#86

Post by guard-of-terra »

maratd wrote: post #5
sbarre wrote: post #3

"DHS lawyers claimed that international travel provides, in and of itself, sufficient Constitutional basis for detention and search of international travellers and the search, seizure and copying of the digital contents of their belongings." Really? Fucking hell.. With every month that goes by, I am less and less inclined to travel to, or do business in, the US.. edit: I'm aware that later in the article they say the…

> Really? Fucking hell.. With every month that goes by, I am less and less inclined to travel to, or do business in, the US.. The insinuation being that the US is the only country doing this? I hate this sort of thing as much as the next guy, but let's not pretend the US is the only country engaging in this behavior. We can certainly expect better, but don't blind yourself to the obvious. Based on recent events, mayb…

It seems to me that US is one of a select few countries who actually employ a lot of people full-time parting travelers with their electronics and harassing them.

A lot more countries reserve rights to do so; US actually do it on a grand scale. That makes all the difference.

Re: How airline reservations are used to target illegal searches

#87

Post by snitko »

atlanticus wrote: post #85
dtsygankov wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When I'm not letting _your_ friends in _my_ house, this is OK, since my house is my property. When _my_ friends cannot visit me in _my_ house, however, because they are lacking a piece of paper called visa, the world is really messed up.

Your house is yours because of an agreement with the country you live in.

Let's say I built a house on a land that belongs to no country. Now, whose house is it? It's mine as long as I can protect it. So property rights are defined not by some piece of paper, but rather by the ability to enforce them. Government is just one way to enforce property rights, I'd argue a rather inefficient one, since it usually can only deal with consequences of an intrusion (and not prevent it). In an absence of government, I could hire a private protection agency to enforce my property rights. And since many other people would be interested in doing the same, there will be a demand and prices would be very affordable.

So don't you dare say that I have my house because of the government.

Re: How airline reservations are used to target illegal searches

#88

Post by 616c »

maratd wrote: post #17
carlob wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Israel is pretty bad in this department as well. I hear that visiting Israel with an Arabic last name, or, god forbid, trying to go visit Palestine from an Israeli airport will land you in all sorts of trouble. In fact I don't plan to visit Israel any time soon. I believe this is the sentiment of grandparent commenter, the fact that there might be other places where something like this happens is no excuse for a beac…

> I hear that visiting Israel with an Arabic last name, or, god forbid, trying to go visit Palestine from an Israeli airport will land you in all sorts of trouble. I hear that visiting Arab countries with a Jewish last name, or, god forbid, trying to go visit Israel from an Arabian airport will land you in all sorts of trouble. Any particular reason you're picking on one and not the other? A bit hypocritical, don't y…

It is a violation of military law for Israeli citizens to enter the Palestinian Territories, full stop. That is why many never visit, as it means severe penalties without trial. As a foreigner who crossed in and out, it is still unpleasant, particularly with Palestinians with Jerusalem plates (those fortunate enough to have free passage). The kind of asshole-ish behavior rivals the TSA.

If anything, that should make the TSA embarrassed.

Re: How airline reservations are used to target illegal searches

#89

Post by rayiner »

joering2 wrote: post #34
maratd wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Really? Fucking hell.. With every month that goes by, I am less and less inclined to travel to, or do business in, the US.. The insinuation being that the US is the only country doing this? I hate this sort of thing as much as the next guy, but let's not pretend the US is the only country engaging in this behavior. We can certainly expect better, but don't blind yourself to the obvious. Based on recent events, mayb…

> The insinuation being that the US is the only country doing this? Can you please make up your mind? Either Americans are "exceptional" and this is "the best country in the world", or not. If not then I don't think its okay to hate on others when they are upset with things happening on this soil. As we all know things in US go downhill since a while. This issue would not suprise in Russia in 80s or on Cuba, but if U…

I bet you'd call Zuck "exceptional" but I'd bet he's dead average athletically.

Re: How airline reservations are used to target illegal searches

#90

Post by dtsygankov »

atlanticus wrote: post #85
dtsygankov wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When I'm not letting _your_ friends in _my_ house, this is OK, since my house is my property. When _my_ friends cannot visit me in _my_ house, however, because they are lacking a piece of paper called visa, the world is really messed up.

Your house is yours because of an agreement with the country you live in.

So, say, the first American settlers used to own their houses because of an agreement with the British government - right? Now, at the exact moment they wished to secede, and started the War of Independence, they violated the agreement, and lost their property rights - right? So anyone could walk into anyone else's home, anyone could take anyone else's stuff... Communism! ;)
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