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How airline reservations are used to target illegal searches

papersplease.org

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Re: How airline reservations are used to target illegal searches

#21

Post by umsm »

maratd wrote: post #17
carlob wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Israel is pretty bad in this department as well. I hear that visiting Israel with an Arabic last name, or, god forbid, trying to go visit Palestine from an Israeli airport will land you in all sorts of trouble. In fact I don't plan to visit Israel any time soon. I believe this is the sentiment of grandparent commenter, the fact that there might be other places where something like this happens is no excuse for a beac…

> I hear that visiting Israel with an Arabic last name, or, god forbid, trying to go visit Palestine from an Israeli airport will land you in all sorts of trouble. I hear that visiting Arab countries with a Jewish last name, or, god forbid, trying to go visit Israel from an Arabian airport will land you in all sorts of trouble. Any particular reason you're picking on one and not the other? A bit hypocritical, don't y…

I believe he was just giving an example. It didn't seem like he wanted to offend anyone.

Re: How airline reservations are used to target illegal searches

#22

Post by Amadou »

maratd wrote: post #17
carlob wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Israel is pretty bad in this department as well. I hear that visiting Israel with an Arabic last name, or, god forbid, trying to go visit Palestine from an Israeli airport will land you in all sorts of trouble. In fact I don't plan to visit Israel any time soon. I believe this is the sentiment of grandparent commenter, the fact that there might be other places where something like this happens is no excuse for a beac…

> I hear that visiting Israel with an Arabic last name, or, god forbid, trying to go visit Palestine from an Israeli airport will land you in all sorts of trouble. I hear that visiting Arab countries with a Jewish last name, or, god forbid, trying to go visit Israel from an Arabian airport will land you in all sorts of trouble. Any particular reason you're picking on one and not the other? A bit hypocritical, don't y…

Israel, and the USA, make a big deal about being representative democracies and champions of human rights. Anytime their deeds don't match their words, criticism is warranted. The Saudis and other monarchy/dictatorships in the middle east don't make any such pretense.

Re: How airline reservations are used to target illegal searches

#23

Post by rayiner »

ISL wrote: post #9
sbarre wrote: post #3

"DHS lawyers claimed that international travel provides, in and of itself, sufficient Constitutional basis for detention and search of international travellers and the search, seizure and copying of the digital contents of their belongings." Really? Fucking hell.. With every month that goes by, I am less and less inclined to travel to, or do business in, the US.. edit: I'm aware that later in the article they say the…

I often wonder what the founders would think of the modern interpretation of the fourth amendment at our borders. How would they have chosen to balance privacy against security in our age?

Considering the border search exception dates back to legislation by the First Congress in 1789, I don't think they'd have much of a problem with the current interpretation.

Re: How airline reservations are used to target illegal searches

#24

Post by gwright »

ISL wrote: post #9
sbarre wrote: post #3

"DHS lawyers claimed that international travel provides, in and of itself, sufficient Constitutional basis for detention and search of international travellers and the search, seizure and copying of the digital contents of their belongings." Really? Fucking hell.. With every month that goes by, I am less and less inclined to travel to, or do business in, the US.. edit: I'm aware that later in the article they say the…

I often wonder what the founders would think of the modern interpretation of the fourth amendment at our borders. How would they have chosen to balance privacy against security in our age?

I tend to think that the notion of borders and jurisdictions were much more important and understood in the past than today.

Easy air travel and mass communication of all forms has blurred our sense of national/jurisdictional borders, but they certainly still exist.

Crossing an international border is something significant, you are leaving behind one social contract and entering into a different one.

Re: How airline reservations are used to target illegal searches

#25

Post by rayiner »

snitko wrote: post #8

I don't mean to undermine the effort of put into the lawsuit and this careful analysis. But... Shocking. Government has access to passenger's itinerary. I mean, with all the recent revelations, we might have just assumed that.

Uh, what exactly is shocking about this? The government has the right to know the precise identity of each and every person that's crossing its borders. It's also reasonably entitled to know the identify of each person flying into its sovereign airspace. How do you think they enforce visas and customs?

Re: How airline reservations are used to target illegal searches

#26

Post by mmagin »

AJ007 wrote: post #7
sbarre wrote: post #3

"DHS lawyers claimed that international travel provides, in and of itself, sufficient Constitutional basis for detention and search of international travellers and the search, seizure and copying of the digital contents of their belongings." Really? Fucking hell.. With every month that goes by, I am less and less inclined to travel to, or do business in, the US.. edit: I'm aware that later in the article they say the…

You should never cross any border, US or otherwise, with a mobile phone, laptop, or any sensitive documents. Neither should your employees, if their device are user for work. This is not a new revelation. Industrial espionage by spy services has been ongoing for a very long time.

How would you put this into action if you're a typical business traveler? It doesn't seem very practical.

Re: How airline reservations are used to target illegal searches

#27

Post by carlob »

maratd wrote: post #17
carlob wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Israel is pretty bad in this department as well. I hear that visiting Israel with an Arabic last name, or, god forbid, trying to go visit Palestine from an Israeli airport will land you in all sorts of trouble. In fact I don't plan to visit Israel any time soon. I believe this is the sentiment of grandparent commenter, the fact that there might be other places where something like this happens is no excuse for a beac…

> I hear that visiting Israel with an Arabic last name, or, god forbid, trying to go visit Palestine from an Israeli airport will land you in all sorts of trouble. I hear that visiting Arab countries with a Jewish last name, or, god forbid, trying to go visit Israel from an Arabian airport will land you in all sorts of trouble. Any particular reason you're picking on one and not the other? A bit hypocritical, don't y…

First off both of what the sibling posters said is true.

1. Israel makes big claims of being an advanced democracy, unlike the Saudi monarchy

2. I wasn't singling Israel in particular. I wouldn't visit Saudi Arabia for the exact same reasons.

But there is another point where your parallel breaks, there is no way to get to Palestine without going through Israel, so if you are a social worker involved with the welfare issues in West Bank or Gaza, or even a Christian pilgrim trying to go to Betlehem, you have no choice but to submit to the ordeal.

Re: How airline reservations are used to target illegal searches

#28

Post by eru »

mmagin wrote: post #26
AJ007 wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You should never cross any border, US or otherwise, with a mobile phone, laptop, or any sensitive documents. Neither should your employees, if their device are user for work. This is not a new revelation. Industrial espionage by spy services has been ongoing for a very long time.

How would you put this into action if you're a typical business traveler? It doesn't seem very practical.

Encrypt your stuff, and put it online.

Re: How airline reservations are used to target illegal searches

#29

Post by sbarre »

maratd wrote: post #5
sbarre wrote: post #3

"DHS lawyers claimed that international travel provides, in and of itself, sufficient Constitutional basis for detention and search of international travellers and the search, seizure and copying of the digital contents of their belongings." Really? Fucking hell.. With every month that goes by, I am less and less inclined to travel to, or do business in, the US.. edit: I'm aware that later in the article they say the…

> Really? Fucking hell.. With every month that goes by, I am less and less inclined to travel to, or do business in, the US.. The insinuation being that the US is the only country doing this? I hate this sort of thing as much as the next guy, but let's not pretend the US is the only country engaging in this behavior. We can certainly expect better, but don't blind yourself to the obvious. Based on recent events, mayb…

I wasn't insinuating anything. I said nothing more, or less, than what I said. Any insinuation or implication otherwise is of your own making, and is quite disingenuous I would add.

I live in Canada, so I'm on the border with the US, and while I have certainly travelled worldwide (including to some less than democratic countries), I have overwhelmingly travelled to the US, both for business and personal.

And over the last while, I have become increasingly uncomfortable crossing the border into the US, as compared to how it used to be, based on hearing more and more stories of detention and unreasonable search (both in the media and personal accounts from people I know). I have personally experienced at the very least a new level of hostility and aggressive questioning on a few occasions that I had not experienced before.

So certainly there are other countries where this type of treatment is possible at the border, but I am expressing dismay at the fact that the US is now "one of those" countries, when it didn't used to be.

And yes, "unreasonable" is in the eye of the beholder, but they're my eyes thank you very much, so I may eventually just opt out of visiting the US for any reason.

Re: How airline reservations are used to target illegal searches

#30

Post by Amadou »

snitko wrote: post #14
lisper wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You have missed the point. It is not that the government has access to your itinerary, it is that low-level government officials (apparently) have access to your itinerary with no administrative oversight whatsoever. The NSA at least puts on a show of getting FISA court approval. But DHS isn't even going through the motions. The key passage from the article: "The implication is that rather than search its own ATS dat…

I, personally, have no trust in any government, so I sort of assumed that too. But that's me. I think you're right and it raises an important question for others, whether the government is really what they think it is.

That sort of cynicism is probably the chief enabler of such corruption. As with any other human endeavor, government will never be perfect, but that isn't a reason to give up on holding government to high standards.

It is reasonable to take precautionary steps in your personal life while at the very same time demanding that the government behave such that those steps are completely unnecessary.

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