Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

The Case Against High-School Sports

theatlantic.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

41–50 of 90 posts

Re: The Case Against High-School Sports

#41

Post by geebee »

I'm always a little sad to see a case made against sports, since I do think that participation in sports can be an exceptionally positive force in a young (or old!) person's life - when the culture of sports emphasizes honest competition and respect for your opponent. It's about wanting to win but realizing that winning isn't the goal at all. You know, when it's match point, and there's a ball that was probably out, but you didn't see it clearly, and you know the rules - if you can't make the call, the point and match goes to your opponent. Go shake hands with your head held high. It doesn't matter if you're a crappy tennis player or a great one. You played hard, and you played fairly.

Unfortunately, what I just described isn't really sports in America. There's no way to tell this next anecdote without admitting that I watched "The Biggest Loser", so let's just get that out of the way now. Ok. so. There was this section where an NFL player shows up to talk about how the NFL takes fitness and obesity seriously, and so, they're announcing a "fifteen thousand dollar" (well, I don't remember the exact amount) donation to help fight obesity.

So, a league that makes billions off people who rarely exercise and sit on their sofa watching people play an expensive sport that probably badly harms people when played as intended and is largely inaccessible in the form played professionally (tag or flag football is a different thing, and is kind of fun in my opinion), raking in millions (billions?) in ad dollars by subjecting the non-exercising viewers to barrage of advertisements for empty calorie foods supplemented with a chemical scientists use to induce obesity in lab rats, is now going to donate 0.000001% of the budget to purchase some unused exercise equipment to help fight obesity. Ok, I'm not sure it goes exactly like that, but I'm pretty sure it doesn't go exactly unlike that.

And here's one more problem - I really like college football. I just hate what it has become. There may be a middle ground here.

http://www.nytimes.com/roomfordebate/2013/04/22/should-colle...

And supposedly (according to the NYTimes) watching pro tennis players does improve the games of amateurs, so maybe there's some benefits to watching instead of just playing. At least, that's what I'll tell myself for now...

Re: The Case Against High-School Sports

#42

Post by [deleted] »

supercanuck wrote: post #16

As a kid growing up in hockey crazed Canada, the hockey teams are seperate from the education system but the culture is no less crazy. Is the education achievments of Canada any different than the United States? As an example, all you need to do is go to Surrey, BC to see a complex with three ice rinks connected to the Skytrain.

[deleted]

Re: The Case Against High-School Sports

#43

Post by nitrogen »

skizm wrote: post #28

Athletics and after-school programs are probably some of the best thing schools can spend their money on (apart from good teachers). I agree maybe they get in the way of studies when students are forced to attend pep-rallies or something similar but that is just bad school administration and needs to be dealt with on an individual school level. Apart from all the soft skills that are tough to test for like leadership…

Athletes get better grades in high school because they are encouraged by GPA requirements to take easier classes, and because teachers are pressured to inflate athletes' grades to keep them playing.

Local sports can be good; I played soccer in a non-school league. School-sponsored teams only divide students and create perverse incentives.

Re: The Case Against High-School Sports

#44

Post by lumberjack »

rayiner wrote: post #26

I find it amusing that in a country where so many people are obese, diabetic, etc, people are characterizing sports as the problem. If anything, there is too much "learning" in school and not enough sports! All over the country, physical education programs are being cut to make way for more instruction on native Americans, as if that's really what society needs.

Sports and physical activity are not the same. The way sports is done in high school, alienates anyone who does not care to compete athletically and dedicate a good chuck of their time towards that goal. Sports is also not the healthiest option around. I have many friends who still suffer from injuries that they relate back to their days of football practice and such.

What high schools should have is a continuum of the physical education classes in middle school. In fact I think it would be much more productive a class in high school because by then the students would be mature enough to understand that the class is not just an hour of wasted time.

Re: The Case Against High-School Sports

#45

Post by mcguire »

kaa2102 wrote: post #9
barranger wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is that multiple changes we made at the same time in that school: 1) Giving Teaches more time for training and planing 2) Making students wear uniforms 3) Aligning the curriculum with more rigorous state standards 4) Drop the sports program Then spends the rest of the article giving all the credit for the improved test scores to a lack of sports.

You made an excellent counterpoint. The improvements in performance were not solely due to dropping sports programs. It may be difficult to tease out the impact that each of the major changes had on performance. I did participate extensively in high school sports. I think that the benefits far outweigh the costs. In evaluating solutions like dropping sports programs, I believe that other options for performance impro…

Out of curiosity, how many of your teachers were hired primarily as coaches in the sports programs?

"minimum GPA for sports participation"

You wouldn't believe the kerfluffle that caused in Texas[1]. As I recall, the result was rather predictable grade inflation.

1. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_Pass_No_Play

Re: The Case Against High-School Sports

#46

Post by mcguire »

pessimizer wrote: post #36
riggins wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm kind of torn. Played HS sports. And I agree 100% with what you're saying. The US glorifies athletics in an unbalanced way. To quote Bill James http://www.slate.com/articles/sports/sports_nut/2011/03/shak... Our society is very, very good at developing certain types of skills and certain types of genius. We are fantastically good at identifying and developing athletic skills—better than we are, really, at almost a…

WWII was the reason for the success of the US.

WWII was a consequence. The large amount of untapped natural resources were the reason for the success of the US.

Re: The Case Against High-School Sports

#47

Post by mcguire »

001sky wrote: post #25
JPKab wrote: post #12

I was a high school athlete. I wrestled on a top-tier team, played football, and ran cross-country after a knee-injury temporarily disallowed me from football. The financial impact of high school sports aren't the issue. The real issue is their impact on high school culture. School sports, especially the big, spectator friendly, fast-twitch muscle oriented sports of football, basketball, and baseball, send a big mess…

Sports are good, but I agree: get them the fuck out of academic institutions. They have no place there. The counter example is that sports are linked (hitstorically) with (very) successful Academic Institutions. The notion that "they have no place there" is historically way off the mark. [Edit: Examples] [1] In 1815, Eton College documented its football [soccer] rules, the first football code to be written down anywh…

"The counter example is that sports are linked (hitstorically) with (very) successful Academic Institutions."

Some of them. Others, less so.[1]

* Princeton University

* Harvard University

* Yale University

* Columbia University

* Stanford University

* University of Chicago

* Duke University

* Massachusetts Institute of Technology

* University of Pennsylvania

* California Institute of Technology

"And rightly or wrongly 'character' and 'teamwork' are subjects not developed/selected for in the classroom [but are on the sports field?]."

Sometimes. Others, less so.[2]

[1] http://colleges.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-colleges/...

[2] http://news.msn.com/crime-justice/off-field-arrests-for-viol...

Re: The Case Against High-School Sports

#48

Post by mcguire »

rayiner wrote: post #26

I find it amusing that in a country where so many people are obese, diabetic, etc, people are characterizing sports as the problem. If anything, there is too much "learning" in school and not enough sports! All over the country, physical education programs are being cut to make way for more instruction on native Americans, as if that's really what society needs.

"All over the country, physical education programs are being cut to make way for more instruction on native Americans,..."

[[Citation Needed]]

Re: The Case Against High-School Sports

#49

Post by rayiner »

mcguire wrote: post #48
rayiner wrote: post #26

I find it amusing that in a country where so many people are obese, diabetic, etc, people are characterizing sports as the problem. If anything, there is too much "learning" in school and not enough sports! All over the country, physical education programs are being cut to make way for more instruction on native Americans, as if that's really what society needs.

" All over the country , physical education programs are being cut to make way for more instruction on native Americans,..." [[Citation Needed]]

See: http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/11/education/even-as-schools-....

Re: The Case Against High-School Sports

#50

Post by dingaling »

mathattack wrote: post #18

I am a big believer in investing in physical fitness for students, and think that sports can be great for learning teamwork and hard work. I'm not such a believer for focusing physical fitness money on a narrow subset of students in competitive-entry teams. I think that schools use sports and team spirit to mask other problems with their programs. It is a shame that schools spend money on a small subset of their stud…

> and think that sports can be great for learning teamwork and hard work

I agree that they develop hard work and commitment, but I've always been sceptical about the teamwork aspects.

Teamwork should enable a group of people to achieve more than the individual. Most sports are not like that: practically, it makes no difference if each football team has one player or 11. The objective ( score against the opposition ) would still be achieved. Perhaps to a lesser magnitude, but still achieved.

Real teamwork development requires tasks that are physically impossible for a single person.

Post reply on HN