Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Artillery is building a hardcore RTS with HTML5 and WebGL

blog.artillery.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

71–80 of 151 posts

Re: Artillery is building a hardcore RTS with HTML5 and WebGL

#71

Post by pfft876xb »

slacka wrote: post #29
monsterix wrote: post #9

Wow! This is mesmerizing. These posts on HTML5 stuff that pop-up on HN from time to time hint on what is to come on the web in the near term. I think HTML5 is a huge Tsunami gathering energy and steam out there! It will and should beat all these "I-am-the-best" closed systems (already does in some areas) sometime soon, and be on the top. System agnostic, immersive, inclusive, what not. Love it.

We may be seeing the same HTML5 demos on HN, but we're living in two different universes. In my world, I always open up these demos in a browser that's incompatible. If I do manage to get them working, my reaction is always like wow, I saw better native demos 10 years ago, and those just worked. Let's be honest. JavaScript, DOM, and CSS are terrible technologies to base any gaming system off of. As a gamer, performan…

There are some absolutely amazing HTML5 / WebGL things out there; I'm just not sure you've seen them. It's true that browser incompatibility is an issue, but say you're ONLY targeting Chrome desktops, which still has a bigger user base than most consoles--if you're doing it right you're getting hardware accelerated graphics and the performance is pretty great. Have you seen cloudparty.com? It has multiplayer in-world building, skeletal animation, particles, full screen effects... the works, and the performance is definitely up to snuff. Observe tons of realtime screencasts here: http://www.youtube.com/user/CloudPartyInc

I think that the problem is that WebGL is young and there are LOTS of ways to shoot yourself in the foot perf-wise. Only a few teams have really figured it out and the rest are making the tech look bad. But the performance is there if you're an experience graphics programmer and you know your way around JS wackiness.

Re: Artillery is building a hardcore RTS with HTML5 and WebGL

#72

Post by rictic »

_random_ wrote: post #40
slacka wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We may be seeing the same HTML5 demos on HN, but we're living in two different universes. In my world, I always open up these demos in a browser that's incompatible. If I do manage to get them working, my reaction is always like wow, I saw better native demos 10 years ago, and those just worked. Let's be honest. JavaScript, DOM, and CSS are terrible technologies to base any gaming system off of. As a gamer, performan…

Also unlike Steam you might have to re-download the whole thing if your browser decides to clear the cache for whatever reason. Can't play underground, on a plane or while camping as well (not a typical scenario though - nitpicking a bit).

There's work going on for better app caching systems at the browser level. This is a UI and platform issue, but there's no tricky technical aspects. The user expresses the intent of wanting to cache a web app, and it is cached locally.

Re: Artillery is building a hardcore RTS with HTML5 and WebGL

#73

Post by catshirt »

slacka wrote: post #50
untog wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

JavaScript, DOM, and CSS are terrible technologies to base any gaming system off of They are, but I very much doubt these guys are using the DOM or CSS. And if they're using asm.js then they're using a very different JavaScript, too.

I was talking about HTML5 demos posted on HN. Like this one that DOES use CSS: http://www.keithclark.co.uk/labs/css3-fps-new/ Granted, it's a terrible abuse of a CSS, but it's also a perfect example of how I'm supposed to be wowed by a buggy HTML5 demo my PC could render better in every way 15 years ago. And no one has answered my question yet. What benefit does HTML5 bring me as a gamer? Why are HTML5 games better t…

>> What benefit does HTML5 bring me as a gamer? Why are HTML5 games better than native games in my steam library, especially considering DSL is my only option for Internet here?

more people making games and more people playing them. i don't think anyone thinks the browser is the end all be all platform to deliver a game. just like some games run on OS X and some don't, and some games are on Steam and some are not. some games will be in the browser and some won't.

i hear you on the technical concerns. lots of problems. but the vendors recognize this and have a vested interested in fixing it.

ps - how can we start an hn sc2 group

Re: Artillery is building a hardcore RTS with HTML5 and WebGL

#74

Post by sspiff »

codexon wrote: post #46

I think Javascript is too slow for 3d gaming. If you look at this HTML5/WebGL minecraft engine, it stutters even without any other players or bots in the environment. http://voxeljs.com/#gallery Meanwhile Minecraft running in Java is smooth on even the slowest machines. Benchmarks indicate that Javascript is 4x slower than Java. http://j15r.com/blog/2013/07/05/Box2d_Addendum The alternatives like ASM.js and PNACL are…

This is exactly what they said about Java ten years ago (and I still hear it today): "Java is way to slow for games/anything performance-critical".

The choice of Java in your argument is kind of ironic to me.

Re: Artillery is building a hardcore RTS with HTML5 and WebGL

#75

Post by pjmlp »

bdicasa wrote: post #62
debacle wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because it's easier, so the programmers to build those apps are cheaper? Not a really good rationale when it comes to game development.

Not sure how you come up with that logic - most applications are built on the web because it is easily accessible to millions of users.

No, because the world is full of JavaScript kiddies.

Re: Artillery is building a hardcore RTS with HTML5 and WebGL

#76

Post by pjmlp »

jamesgeck0 wrote: post #26
Mikeb85 wrote: post #20

This is impressive and cool, but I think web-based gaming will never catch on with the 'hardcore' for a few reasons. For one, C++ and the native toolchain is still more efficient. But it mostly comes down to perception and convenience. The perception of web-based games is that they're casual and cheap. And most hardcore gamers like to have a copy of the game on their computer - they paid for it, they want a copy that…

Convenience is exactly why this is interesting. I don't buy many games outside of Steam because it's so convenient not to have to back up installers or hunt for a particular XNA version or what have you. There's a low barrier to entry to trying something that runs in a browser. I just navigate to the page, wait for a progress bar, and maybe bookmark the game if I like it. The low barrier to entry is one reason that f…

That is what consoles are for.

Re: Artillery is building a hardcore RTS with HTML5 and WebGL

#77

Post by thefreeman »

slacka wrote: post #29
monsterix wrote: post #9

Wow! This is mesmerizing. These posts on HTML5 stuff that pop-up on HN from time to time hint on what is to come on the web in the near term. I think HTML5 is a huge Tsunami gathering energy and steam out there! It will and should beat all these "I-am-the-best" closed systems (already does in some areas) sometime soon, and be on the top. System agnostic, immersive, inclusive, what not. Love it.

We may be seeing the same HTML5 demos on HN, but we're living in two different universes. In my world, I always open up these demos in a browser that's incompatible. If I do manage to get them working, my reaction is always like wow, I saw better native demos 10 years ago, and those just worked. Let's be honest. JavaScript, DOM, and CSS are terrible technologies to base any gaming system off of. As a gamer, performan…

It's easy to talk trash on a technology that is in its infancy. Wait... WebGL games are still not as good as game engines that have been developed for 20 years? SHOCKER.

The technology is only going to get better. The whole point of these demo's is to show what is possible even now when the specs aren't finalized and the technology is barely adopted. Give it 3-5 years and I would be willing to bet you'll need to eat your words.

Re: Artillery is building a hardcore RTS with HTML5 and WebGL

#78

Post by Recoil42 »

monsterix wrote: post #37
slacka wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We may be seeing the same HTML5 demos on HN, but we're living in two different universes. In my world, I always open up these demos in a browser that's incompatible. If I do manage to get them working, my reaction is always like wow, I saw better native demos 10 years ago, and those just worked. Let's be honest. JavaScript, DOM, and CSS are terrible technologies to base any gaming system off of. As a gamer, performan…

> I saw better native demos 10 years ago, and those just worked. Agreed. But you're missing the point. In those 10 years those of us who played in the native universe will not be the target market any more. Just like we listeners of Pink Floyd and Metallica aren't the target buyers of Justin Biebers and Lady Gagas of the day. The latter are as successful, immersive and relevant to those who matter. > JavaScript, DOM,…

>Now this is an opinion based on the current_level_of_performance (which I agree is not at the expected level.). But it's not a great way to judge what the future could hold.

Native will always fundamentally beat non-native, that's a plain fact.

Re: Artillery is building a hardcore RTS with HTML5 and WebGL

#79

Post by bluntly_said »

pjmlp wrote: post #76
jamesgeck0 wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Convenience is exactly why this is interesting. I don't buy many games outside of Steam because it's so convenient not to have to back up installers or hunt for a particular XNA version or what have you. There's a low barrier to entry to trying something that runs in a browser. I just navigate to the page, wait for a progress bar, and maybe bookmark the game if I like it. The low barrier to entry is one reason that f…

That is what consoles are for.

No, it's really not. This is what consoles are trying to become, but they're also a long way off. They're also expensive, dedicated machines.

Even assuming this IS what console are for, why in the world are you going to complain about more competition in the market for a good way to distribute games?

Re: Artillery is building a hardcore RTS with HTML5 and WebGL

#80

Post by thefreeman »

d0m wrote: post #49
Mikeb85 wrote: post #20

This is impressive and cool, but I think web-based gaming will never catch on with the 'hardcore' for a few reasons. For one, C++ and the native toolchain is still more efficient. But it mostly comes down to perception and convenience. The perception of web-based games is that they're casual and cheap. And most hardcore gamers like to have a copy of the game on their computer - they paid for it, they want a copy that…

Well, I'm a hardcore gamer and I think you're all wrong, no offense. I care for good games. Whether it's from the browser or native, as long as it's addictive and competitive I'll play it. Also, the thing about having a copy is a thing of the past. Think about Starcraft2 that you can download and already have the settings you used on a different computer. Or steam where you download the game and press play. My person…

I real like the idea of a game-mode for browsers, or a dedicated game browser. It could disable all hotkeys, have extremely minimal chrome, and be optimized for the gaming environment.
Post reply on HN