Is It Time For Apple To Update App Store Pricing Rules? • Hacker News Board

Re: Is It Time For Apple To Update App Store Pricing Rules?

#11

Post by josephlord » Wed, Sep 18, 2013, 11:47 PM UTC

I think with iOS 7 and Mavericks it will be possible to do upgrade pricing because of the new features in the receipts which critically include initial purchase date. With that you can offer an in-app purchase to upgrade to the new version features to customers who bought before a certain date and provide them automatically to those who bought after the date.

Note that I have not tested this or even studied the API in detail as I have no need for it at the moment.

It isn't without downsides though as you need to have both (or more) modes running inside the same app and test them to ensure that they all continue working.

Re: Is It Time For Apple To Update App Store Pricing Rules?

#12

Post by yapcguy » Wed, Sep 18, 2013, 11:51 PM UTC

passerinelabs wrote: post #6

yapcguy wrote: post #2

Ken Case is a nice guy, always polite whenever you speak to him. However, someone should do him a favor and tell him that after 5 years of Apple ignoring him, it's obvious he's in an abusive relationship and needs to get out. OmniGroup was successful before the App Store, and based on the quality of their software, will remain so even if they quit the App Store. > “Apple is certainly aware of our desire for upgrade p…

How do you go from Apple not including a feature in the MAS (in this case, upgrade pricing) to "abusive relationship?" I and every other small Apple developer would really love some analytics capabilities in the app store, but we don't go around calling its absence "abusive" on Apple's part. The MAS is just another sales channel and Apple doesn't force you to use it. It's not incumbent on them to add features just be…

Yes, I'm being a little dramatic, but...

Apple does "force" you to use the MAS. You can't use the iCloud APIs unless your app is sold in the MAS which means you also have to accept sandboxing. Who knows what else will be tied to the MAS in the future.

The situation is farcical because developers are paying Apple 30% of their gross revenue for the privilege of a sales channel with no customer information and the spectacle of begging for things like upgrade pricing and analytics.

Re: Is It Time For Apple To Update App Store Pricing Rules?

#13

Post by passerinelabs » Thu, Sep 19, 2013, 12:29 AM UTC

yapcguy wrote: post #12

passerinelabs wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do you go from Apple not including a feature in the MAS (in this case, upgrade pricing) to "abusive relationship?" I and every other small Apple developer would really love some analytics capabilities in the app store, but we don't go around calling its absence "abusive" on Apple's part. The MAS is just another sales channel and Apple doesn't force you to use it. It's not incumbent on them to add features just be…

Yes, I'm being a little dramatic, but... Apple does "force" you to use the MAS. You can't use the iCloud APIs unless your app is sold in the MAS which means you also have to accept sandboxing. Who knows what else will be tied to the MAS in the future. The situation is farcical because developers are paying Apple 30% of their gross revenue for the privilege of a sales channel with no customer information and the spect…

I actually really like the idea of sandboxing and entitlements for Mac apps. It's appropriate for like 90% of all the apps I run and I'll happily click through a scary warning for the things I don't think ought to run in a sandbox.

For some developers the MAS is a really nice alternative to direct distribution. You don't have to setup a merchant account and deal with all that. Your apps are automatically searchable (if not really discoverable). You have a built-in review/rating system to establish credibility pretty quickly (which absolutely impacts sales). It's not a horrible system, and again, Apple doesn't force you to use it... unless you want to use iCloud, but then again there's nothing stopping you from doing your own cloud sync solution as Omni has done.

Re: Is It Time For Apple To Update App Store Pricing Rules?

#14

Post by glhaynes » Thu, Sep 19, 2013, 12:42 AM UTC

zem wrote: post #3

i cannot even begin to fathom the thinking behind this: > Case could have continued to support OmniKeyMaster against Apple’s wishes and accepted the removal of Omni’s apps from the Mac App Store. After all, though he admits that Omni’s apps do very well in the Mac App Store, most of Omni’s customers still buy directly through their own online store. Instead he says he pulled OmniKeyMaster because he and Omni Group ha…

Some of the buyers who buy through the Mac App Store would have bought directly from Omni instead, but the rest would have been lost sales.

Also, just because more sales are done direct than via the MAS today, Omni may not expect it'll always be that way.

Re: Is It Time For Apple To Update App Store Pricing Rules?

#15

Post by yapcguy » Thu, Sep 19, 2013, 12:57 AM UTC

passerinelabs wrote: post #13

yapcguy wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, I'm being a little dramatic, but... Apple does "force" you to use the MAS. You can't use the iCloud APIs unless your app is sold in the MAS which means you also have to accept sandboxing. Who knows what else will be tied to the MAS in the future. The situation is farcical because developers are paying Apple 30% of their gross revenue for the privilege of a sales channel with no customer information and the spect…

I actually really like the idea of sandboxing and entitlements for Mac apps. It's appropriate for like 90% of all the apps I run and I'll happily click through a scary warning for the things I don't think ought to run in a sandbox. For some developers the MAS is a really nice alternative to direct distribution. You don't have to setup a merchant account and deal with all that. Your apps are automatically searchable (…

Sure, but the rules are completely arbitrary.

What if they suddenly say only apps distributed in the MAS can use AirDrop, CoreData, CoreAnimation, etc.?

It's not as if they will bother telling developers beforehand.

Go look at the Apple developer forums today, under the iOS 7 beta section, people only found out that the iOS App Store allows older versions of apps to be downloaded because 9To5Mac found out about it and published a blog post. No official guidance (as yet) has been given to developers.

Re: Is It Time For Apple To Update App Store Pricing Rules?

#16

Post by ap3 » Thu, Sep 19, 2013, 1:12 AM UTC

chrislipa wrote: post #7

I feel like a developer could hack this pretty easily by enabling upgrade features through In-App Purchases.

My thoughts too, can someone explain why IAP don't solve the upgrade problem ?

Is it because a new version requires a totally new/different binary ?

Re: Is It Time For Apple To Update App Store Pricing Rules?

#17

Post by aroch » Thu, Sep 19, 2013, 2:16 AM UTC

Karunamon wrote: post #9

passerinelabs wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do you go from Apple not including a feature in the MAS (in this case, upgrade pricing) to "abusive relationship?" I and every other small Apple developer would really love some analytics capabilities in the app store, but we don't go around calling its absence "abusive" on Apple's part. The MAS is just another sales channel and Apple doesn't force you to use it. It's not incumbent on them to add features just be…

Unless you want your app on iOS at all. Or unless you want your app to work out of the box on any user's machine without scary security warnings. Please. The wheretos and the whyfors of the negatives of Apple's particular flavor of walled garden have been discussed ad nauseum. You know damn well the problem here isn't that they don't have an upgrade pricing option, the problem is that they came down like a ton of bri…

As long as you've built and signed your app with your dev cert gatekeeper will open it with no scary warning -- no? That's always been my experience at least

Re: Is It Time For Apple To Update App Store Pricing Rules?

#18

Post by fpgeek » Thu, Sep 19, 2013, 2:36 AM UTC

josephlord wrote: post #11

I think with iOS 7 and Mavericks it will be possible to do upgrade pricing because of the new features in the receipts which critically include initial purchase date. With that you can offer an in-app purchase to upgrade to the new version features to customers who bought before a certain date and provide them automatically to those who bought after the date. Note that I have not tested this or even studied the API i…

You're missing the point. It's not about what is technically feasible. Omni Group didn't have technical issues implementing their upgrade solution and it contradicted no policy that they were aware of at the time.

Nevertheless, Apple decided that they didn't like it and shut them down. They might do the exact same thing to an app that simulated upgrades via in-app purchases. Developers have been asking for upgrade pricing for years and gotten nothing. In many cases, Apple has even stopped offering upgrades for their own apps.

Given the development effort required, would you bet on Apple allowing your upgrade solution through?

Re: Is It Time For Apple To Update App Store Pricing Rules?

#19

Post by fpgeek » Thu, Sep 19, 2013, 2:41 AM UTC

aroch wrote: post #17

Karunamon wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unless you want your app on iOS at all. Or unless you want your app to work out of the box on any user's machine without scary security warnings. Please. The wheretos and the whyfors of the negatives of Apple's particular flavor of walled garden have been discussed ad nauseum. You know damn well the problem here isn't that they don't have an upgrade pricing option, the problem is that they came down like a ton of bri…

As long as you've built and signed your app with your dev cert gatekeeper will open it with no scary warning -- no? That's always been my experience at least

Assuming that the OS is set to permit developer-signed apps. That's the default for now. If the Mac moves further in the direction of iOS, it might not stay that way.

Re: Is It Time For Apple To Update App Store Pricing Rules?

#20

Post by peterkelly » Thu, Sep 19, 2013, 2:54 AM UTC

clarky07 wrote: post #8

It seems like IAP solves this problem. It might be a bit of a hack, but it would work. Not sure what the big deal is.

It provides a partial solution. As a developer, you can issue a new update which has the new features introduced, and offer an in-app purchase to unlock those. However it it means you have to continue to maintain the "old" version of the app (i.e. the app without the new features enabled). For one version this isn't too much of a problem, but by the time you've released three or four major version upgrades over a period of 6 years, you've got quite a few code paths to test.

It also only really works if the things the new version introduces are features that can be easily isolated from the rest of the app. If a developer were to do a major rewrite of a core part of the app (e.g. a rewrite of core functionality which improves performance/usability) then IAP isn't a viable option. So it's a significant inconvenience.

The other option of course is a subscription model, which is the direction a lot of large developers (Adobe, Microsoft) are heading in. If the developer has an ongoing source of revenue from subscriptions, then that could cover the costs of developing new versions. However not all users want to be forced into a subscription, particularly for a high-end productivity tool that they are buying to use over a period of many years.