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It's A Terrible Time To Buy An Expensive House

patrick.net

191–199 of 199 posts

Re: It's A Terrible Time To Buy An Expensive House

#191
post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cars are not an investment because, unless we are talking about collectible antiques, cars always depreciate. That's why it's more accurate to think of cars as expenses. Real estate can appreciate. It's not guaranteed to do so, but it can, and with significant leverage. That's why it's considered an investment.

To be precise, a house is a depreciating asset, but the land it sits on is (almost alwasys) an appreciating one. Most homes are built well enough that their rate of depreciation is slow. And since the purchase price is high compared to a car, it is more affordable to spend a few thousand dollars rennovating an aging house than an aging car. But eventually the house will break down and its value will go to zero. In te…

Well put. What does this say about a condo buildings? Ratio of livable structural sqft to land sqft is much higher in condos than SFH and yet there is still crazy appreciation.

Re: It's A Terrible Time To Buy An Expensive House

#192
post #164

I bought a duplex 4 years ago. With rent from other side my total (taxes, insurance, mortgage) has been ~$500 (1/2 to 1/3 of what I could rent for. PLUS I've gotten tax benefits, and $250/mo equity. When I buy a house shortly, the duplex will start making $500/mo + ever increasing equity amount. Until I decide to cash out. Property/land is one of the most available avenues to wealth. But, it's no silver bullet. If yo…

Are you factoring in maintenance? Depending on the age and quality of the construction, you might be looking at big issues lurking under the radar (ie, plumbing, roof, etc). When we bought our duplex, the house inspector didn't really go into an amazing depth of detail, I wish we'd had more focus on the foundation (sometimes acts like a sump - solution is a french drain estimated @ $5-10k).

I hear you on the house inspection. As a naive first-time buyer, I was told over and over again to get an inspection and I did. And, all-in-all, it was a waste of $300. The roof was more damaged than I was led to believe, and there were several huge "code" violations with the plumbing and electrical. Luckily, I have family handy-men who taught me how to correct these problems myself and on the cheap. If you decide to pay for a home inspection in the future, make sure you don't use one that is recommended by your realtor (facepalm).

The "maintenance" issue is often misunderstood and the costs are different depending on if you live in the home or are renting it out to someone else. Case in point, my furnace started failing a few years ago. I could have fixed it on a Saturday afternoon for a hundred or so (it was made in 1986 -- they were not particularly sophisticated devices back then). If I wasn't living in the house, I would have gone this route. Instead, due to the $250/month heating bill to keep my house at a cool 65 in the winter coupled with the availability of generous tax credits, I upgraded the A/C and furnace. I now keep my home at 75 degrees and pay $80 in the coldest months of the winter.

Most of the problems I've run into have a similar theme. I could have gotten another few years out of my roof with patch work ($~100), but I replaced it because I wanted a better looking (and functioning) roof ($3000). I had a water tank problem that, I discovered, wasn't even failing -- the temp was just set too high. ($0) Due to tax credits and a desire to run more than one device that consumes hot water, I replaced it. ($800) People who are afraid of the unpredictability of these costs can purchase insurance (read the fine print and no, it's usually not a good deal). And a lot of the really expensive repairs that you hear about have more to do with people failing to inspect their home regularly, themselves (get in the attic, watch the way the water drains when it rains, etc). It's a lot cheaper to fix a downspout/gutter that's imperfect than it is to solve a foundation issue that creeps up as a result of water affecting the stability of the ground around a basement.

The article doesn't really apply to where I live. If you're renting out here, it's at a set of suburban-ish apartment complexes (900sq. ft. 2br, 1ba $800) or extremely low-end houses usually in undesirable neighborhoods vs a dearth of single family homes around 1400 sq. ft, 3br, 1.1 or 2 ba with basement space not included in the square footage. While there are homes in the million plus range, they're huge or have something that's highly unique about them (like a million dollar light house[1], supposedly the only one in Michigan that can be privately owned -- and even that's been sitting on the block for two years with the offering price dropped from 1.5 million).

[1] http://www.oldhousedreams.com/2012/04/20/1886-lighthouse-por...

Re: It's A Terrible Time To Buy An Expensive House

#193
Nice post...I wish you had talked about market disruption and the failure of cities as agencies of change.

The realtors' lock on transactions and the lack of transparency in the marketplace is one issue.

The antiquated and closed-source zoning standards are another.

And the building industry in general, hindered by trade unions, et al, is yet another.

Just like disrupting Hollywood would (might) get us better movies, disrupting the RE industry will (might) eliminate overbuilding (and under-building, where applicable) and stabilize prices.

Re: It's A Terrible Time To Buy An Expensive House

#194

Some very solid points about the market in general, but I wonder how several of these points (particularly the points about oversupply, baby boomers, etc.) apply to places like SF or Manhattan. SF, in particular, seems to be extremely young (though that could be observational bias on my part), well-monied, in sharp undersupply of housing, with rent matching or in some cases exceeding the cost of a mortgage. Historica…

Glad you brought up the Bay...entirely different animal than anywhere in the country. Oakland does represent a potential bright spot, but I disagree that there needs to be displacement to achieve it.

Oakland, like most cities, suffers from antiquated and restrictive zoning model (among other things). Already a crowded city in most parts (Lake Merrit), it is largely inefficient. Although they are on different scales (3M vs 300K), Chicago is a good model of how to develop a downtown--the one area where Oakland could add 100k--and help the crime issue. You could argue Detroit has a better downtown.

Re: It's A Terrible Time To Buy An Expensive House

#195
post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's never obvious why a technology is valuable before someone invents an application for it. No one knew what to do with broadband before VoD and digital delivery (Steam, GoG, app stores, etc.) came along, and we're only a few years into widespread adoption of those technologies. Anything could happen on the 5-15 year time scale we're talking about here. Gigabit Internet and the places that have it could look very a…

> It's never obvious why a technology is valuable before someone invents an application for it. Well that's just provably false:) Before flight people knew why flight would be useful. And before broadband people already knew that it would be important. I remember my mom in 1995 saying how useful she thought the internet would be once it was fast enough to transfer videos and pictures of her grand kids.

[deleted]

Re: It's A Terrible Time To Buy An Expensive House

#196
post #192
post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you factoring in maintenance? Depending on the age and quality of the construction, you might be looking at big issues lurking under the radar (ie, plumbing, roof, etc). When we bought our duplex, the house inspector didn't really go into an amazing depth of detail, I wish we'd had more focus on the foundation (sometimes acts like a sump - solution is a french drain estimated @ $5-10k).

I hear you on the house inspection. As a naive first-time buyer, I was told over and over again to get an inspection and I did. And, all-in-all, it was a waste of $300. The roof was more damaged than I was led to believe, and there were several huge "code" violations with the plumbing and electrical. Luckily, I have family handy-men who taught me how to correct these problems myself and on the cheap. If you decide to…

> If you decide to pay for a home inspection in the future, make sure you don't use one that is recommended by your realtor (face palm).

This x 1000.

In fact, I think that's one of the big lessons learned in my first property purchase. If I could do-over, I'd have hired a completely independent inspector (rated highly on yelp/servicemagic/angieslist) and maybe have two separate inspections. At the very least we could have negotiated some compensation from the sellers.

Re: It's A Terrible Time To Buy An Expensive House

#197
I bought a 1-bedroom condo for $500k in downtown SF and put 20% down payment. The monthly mortgage+HOA+tax is around $2500 and I am renting the place out for $2650. So you can say it is paying for itself and 15-years later I will own the place without paying anything but the down payment. Not bad?

Re: It's A Terrible Time To Buy An Expensive House

#198
post #91

I don't believe this to be correct: "the renter - if willing and able to save his money - can buy a house outright in half the time that a conventional buyer can pay off a mortgage" I don't think this is taking into account the rent that a renter pays. If a renter can just afford to pay a mortgage, then using the figures given (3% pa to rent, 8% pa to own) - that's 5% of the house value they're gaining p/a. At that,…

You assume the 5% per annum is going entirely to equity. Consider that property taxes, HOA fees, utilities, mortgage interest and maintenance all contribute to the ~8% figure, and your p/a equity looks closer to 3%. Now let's compare if you were to purchase stock/ETFs with that equity investment instead of investing in your house. Let's do a housing-optimistic comparison. Let's say you get a 2% dividend (nothing spec…

I don't make any assumptions about that 8% - I used the figure and the assumptions from the original article.

If you rent, and put the difference into a savings account, then using the assumptions from the article, you'll be able to buy a house outright in 20 years.

I think you're pretty much agreeing with that..?

I am of course assuming that interest rates (or other return on investment), house prices, inflation and salary increases are all sensible, going in the same direction at the same rate, or near enough.

If you put your money in a pure tracker (e.g. tracking the Dow Jones, FTSE 100, or similar index), then you'll probably be better off in the long term, perhaps able to buy outright in a little less time.

Re: It's A Terrible Time To Buy An Expensive House

#199
post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Care to list a few of the things that are flat out wrong for those not as knowledgeable?

Fairly early on he states that where rents are typically 3% of house prices and interest is typically 4% of a house price "it costs more to borrow the money as it does to borrow the house". Except that interest is 4% of the house price in $YEAR_PURCHASED per annum, and the rental rate is 3% of the house's value in $CURRENT_YEAR per annum so the comparison isn't very meaningful except in the short term: the mortgage p…

Makes a lot of sense, thanks!
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