Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

How to hire programmers using online coding test

recruiterguide.hackerearth.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

51–60 of 61 posts

Re: How to hire programmers using online coding test

#51

Post by robalfonso »

I don't use standard tests when hiring (read: to weed out candidates)

I'm in the process of hiring again as the team is growing and this has struck a chord with me.

I tend to see a resume, if it looks at all decent I will do a interview. Some would say do a call or give them a test to weed out etc. I've done enough interviewing to know that

1) people almost always are different than what their resume portrays for better or worse. 2) body language is 90% of our communication so why waste time on the phone. 3) If its so important to get someone I deem as a good fit I want to meet them. 4) I "waste" a lot of time interviewing, but I get better at it each time and I've found people who would otherwise never have gotten into see me that were spectacular hires. Also I have lots of friends who hire and sometimes someone is great but not for me, the favor has paid off when its returned.

The bottom line is people are unique in many ways. Why try to push them into a standard mold or discard them if they don't fit.

P.S

With regard to testing I usually tailor a test of 5-6 questions AFTER the interview so I can evaluate anything I am not sure of after speaking to the potential hire. I also let them do it at home with their tools. I don't care to see if someone can work with me hovering over them, because I have not intention of doing so on a day-to-day basis.

Re: How to hire programmers using online coding test

#53

Post by VBprogrammer »

VLM wrote: post #46
VBprogrammer wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That would seem premised on the idea that it is better to have someone barely capable in the position than to go without. In my own personal experience I'd rather be short handed than work with someone incompetent.

Your outlook is only correct if jerking applicants around with meaningless trivia questions and irrelevant tests actually, somehow, probably accidentally, results in the selection of world class developers. If there were 20 plumbers and only 10 plumber jobs, I could get away with jerking them around forcing them to do crossword puzzles before hiring them to fix my toilet. That doesn't mean the selection pressure woul…

I understand where you are coming from but personally I believe that asking a programmer to produce a small amount of code is certainly relevant.

Don't get me wrong, it would be possible to pick nearly worthless questions which prove nothing about a candidate but a well designed problem requiring a few dozen lines of code and no 'trick' or specific knowledge can tell you more about an applicant than many hours of trying to code on a white-board or doing silly logic puzzles.

Re: How to hire programmers using online coding test

#54

Post by penrod »

VLM wrote: post #43
gregors wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I read it as "people from Standford aged 19-26"

See that's what causes frustration about "culture BS". OK fine it means you won't hire my wife because of ethnic reasons and gender reasons. Or wait, does it really mean you won't hire me because I'm a perfectly good white Germanic guy but I didn't go to Stanford. Or WRT not hiring my wife, does it mean my daughter need not apply because of her gender is still a cultural mismatch, her being a girl and all that, or is…

If a company doesn't want to hire me (or my wife or my daughters) because I'm not a Stanford grad from the right demographic, that's absolutely fine because I don't want to work for a company run by idiots.

In fact, the louder and more explicit they are about their dumbass culture the better, because it makes it easier for me to avoid wasting my time with them.

Re: How to hire programmers using online coding test

#55

Post by twic »

VLM wrote: post #23
twic wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the best you can do is to set a trivial programming problem, then indeed, that is deeply unimpressive. Happily, that is not what the article is suggesting, nor what anyone actually does. The article gives three steps: first, a trivial programming problem, second, a challenging programming problem (here delivered as homework), and thirdly, a face-to-face interview to check cultural fit. The purpose of the trivial p…

> check cultural fit. I see lots of references to "culture" in hiring comments, so I'm not trying to call you specifically out, but what does it mean? It always bristles me, like if your criteria is "white men only need apply" well just outright say it, don't tiptoe around it. As a suggestion to anyone on HN who does hiring, if for example you're not going to hire my wife because of her ethnicity or because she's a w…

"Culture" is a bullshit nonspecific term and i apologise for using it. It's a word the article used, and i was trying to stick to its language.

For us, it just means "will we be productive and happy spending the working day with this person?". Somebody could be a great programmer, but might not be someone you're going to get on with. They could be too quiet, too loud, too aggressive, too passive, too arrogant, too sensitive, too confident, too insecure, strangely obsessed with tubs of jelly, etc. Great programming skill is a great resource, but if a programmer can't get on with their colleagues, that resource cannot be exploited.

We would not rule you or your wife out on grounds of gender, ethnicity, nationality, religion, university, taste in literature, or the state of your lawn. If you for some reason wanted a job with us, and passed our technical tests, then all we would want to know would be that you could sit down and be an effective pair in programming, and stand up and be an effective participant in a discussion. Ideally, we would also like you to be good company at lunch or in the pub, but that's not essential.

Re: How to hire programmers using online coding test

#56

Post by twic »

aetimmes wrote: post #14
7Figures2Commas wrote: post #8

I always find it funny that half the people/companies advocating these approaches can't even keep a simple WordPress blog up when faced with a bit of traffic. Surely there must be an algorithm for that?

There's no equivalent "online coding test" for admins, unfortunately.

Where i work, we give prospective sysadmins the same simple programming problems as programmers. Our infrastructure is run with automation - Puppet, plus lots of juicy devopsy madness written in Ruby - so our sysadmins do need to have at least rudimentary programming ability.

If they pass that, we don't give them any more programming tests. We give them a hands-on sysadmin assault course problem, where they have to SSH into an EC2 box that has been carefully broken by our devious chief sysadmin, find out what's wrong, and fix it. They do it in a tmux session, with some kind of audio link (Skype, Hangout, etc), so one of our guys can watch and talk to them as they do it. I've listened to several people running through it, and it sounds terrifying.

Re: How to hire programmers using online coding test

#57

Post by twic »

VLM wrote: post #46
VBprogrammer wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That would seem premised on the idea that it is better to have someone barely capable in the position than to go without. In my own personal experience I'd rather be short handed than work with someone incompetent.

Your outlook is only correct if jerking applicants around with meaningless trivia questions and irrelevant tests actually, somehow, probably accidentally, results in the selection of world class developers. If there were 20 plumbers and only 10 plumber jobs, I could get away with jerking them around forcing them to do crossword puzzles before hiring them to fix my toilet. That doesn't mean the selection pressure woul…

That would indeed be a terribly way to hire plumbers! But happily, that is not anything like what the article is suggesting.

The article suggests (1) using a simple but relevant exercise and (2) using it as a screen, to select people for a real interview.

The analogy with plumbers would be something like asking them to list the tools they would need to replace a hot water cylinder. For someone who knows their stuff, it's trivial. But it will weed out the guys who are bullshitting you. The guys who can give a good answer, you ask to come in for a proper interview.

Re: How to hire programmers using online coding test

#58

Post by VLM »

twic wrote: post #55
VLM wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> check cultural fit. I see lots of references to "culture" in hiring comments, so I'm not trying to call you specifically out, but what does it mean? It always bristles me, like if your criteria is "white men only need apply" well just outright say it, don't tiptoe around it. As a suggestion to anyone on HN who does hiring, if for example you're not going to hire my wife because of her ethnicity or because she's a w…

"Culture" is a bullshit nonspecific term and i apologise for using it. It's a word the article used, and i was trying to stick to its language. For us, it just means "will we be productive and happy spending the working day with this person?". Somebody could be a great programmer, but might not be someone you're going to get on with. They could be too quiet, too loud, too aggressive, too passive, too arrogant, too se…

Sounds like the word you (and many other hiring people) are looking for is "Professional" which pretty much meets all your requirements without borrowing an unrelated word. There is a strange aversion to it industry wide. Unclear why. My guess is some peculiarity in .gov regulation WRT overtime pay or maybe contractor status.

Re: How to hire programmers using online coding test

#59

Post by ebbv »

nandemo wrote: post #27
ebbv wrote: post #6

The site has been crushed under the HN traffic (and wherever else this link is propagating today.) So I can only state my opinion on the title which is; this is a terrible basis on which to decide who to hire. I would never hire anyone without having an actual conversation with them. Whether I can get along with the person, if they will be a good fit for our team is the most important criteria. Test taking is not an…

Please consider refraining to comment on a story if you haven't read it. It just adds noise. Case in point, the article does not recommend hiring without talking to the candidate.

I usually don't, but in this case the title irked me and sounded like they were advocating just that. Otherwise, what was the point of the blog post (since coding tests are completely standard in the industry)?

Now that it's recovered I see that it was just to shill the author's particular coding test.

Yawn.

Re: How to hire programmers using online coding test

#60

Post by 7Figures2Commas »

twic wrote: post #55
VLM wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> check cultural fit. I see lots of references to "culture" in hiring comments, so I'm not trying to call you specifically out, but what does it mean? It always bristles me, like if your criteria is "white men only need apply" well just outright say it, don't tiptoe around it. As a suggestion to anyone on HN who does hiring, if for example you're not going to hire my wife because of her ethnicity or because she's a w…

"Culture" is a bullshit nonspecific term and i apologise for using it. It's a word the article used, and i was trying to stick to its language. For us, it just means "will we be productive and happy spending the working day with this person?". Somebody could be a great programmer, but might not be someone you're going to get on with. They could be too quiet, too loud, too aggressive, too passive, too arrogant, too se…

> They could be too quiet, too loud, too aggressive, too passive, too arrogant, too sensitive, too confident, too insecure, strangely obsessed with tubs of jelly, etc.

How about too picky? Hint hint.

> We would not rule you or your wife out on grounds of gender, ethnicity, nationality, religion, university, taste in literature, or the state of your lawn. If you for some reason wanted a job with us...

How generous of you!

The language one chooses to use can reveal a lot about one's thinking and here, "rule you or your wife out" and "for some reason" is, I would argue, very telling.

Post reply on HN