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Starlite

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61–70 of 75 posts

Re: Starlite

#61
I call bullshit.

Here's a list of the points in the article that jumped out at me as uninformative, pseudo-scientific or misleading:

> a laser beam producing a temperature of 10,000 degrees Celsius.

Scientifically, that's meaningless. It's meant to convey a powerful heat source to the reader, but as another reader pointed out, a strong focused light source on a bit of well-insulated black material might be able to raise it to several thousand degrees; the same source pointed at a well-polished mirror could leave it cold to the touch. In other words, the "10,000" degree figure tells us nothing useful.

> (from the allegedly supporting New Scientist article cited on the talk page): The first thing Lewis and his colleagues did was fire powerful laser pulses at the material.

What person with scientific training would set up a laser to conduct his first test on an unknown material? I admit to not being a professional NASA egghead, but if confronted with a substance alleged to be highly heat resistant, I'd start off by holding a sample of it into a Bunsen burner flame, or better yet pop it into a crucible and into a high-temperature furnace.

If a temperature of 10,000°C had really been achieved, that would have been quite impressive: according to elswhere in Wikipedia, the "best" known heat-resistant ceramics lose stability around 3,000°C.

This Tech Radar article http://www.techradar.com/news/world-of-tech/future-tech/10-m... claims a more modest 2500°, achieved with a blowtorch and not a laser. What are we to believe?

As a (hypothetical) egghead, I would certainly object on moral grounds to using an egg for a scientific test of heat resistance. I would instead strive to measure the two characteristics actually relevant to heat resistance, namely thermal conductivity and thermally induced ablation.

As an amateur scientist completely unprepared for such a test and working out of an ordinary household, I would have urged the inventor to use his amazing compound to coat not a chicken's egg but the tip of a thermometer. And I would have attacked this assembly not with a laser but with a burning match. And I would have reported on how much of a rise in temperature was observed, and in which time.

Certainly no non-crackpot scientist would subject his or anyone's hand to a blowtorching without considerably more convincing previous tests. But maybe that claim about the human hand was just rhetoric - it's hard to tell.

Later in the supporting article, the claim is toned down to a much more modest 1000°C. Still, there's a fundamental problem here with the basic chemistry:

Plastics, or more formally polymers, are organic compounds, chemically held together by covalent bonds. Because of the physics that underlies chemistry, covalent bonds cannot be as heat-resistant as ionic bonds (as found in salts and other inorganic compounds). All-organic diamond is the hardest substance known to man (I think) but burns at relatively low temperatures. High-temperature plastics break down at around 150°C.

If the compound contained a mix of polymers, as stated, then it contained some organic compounds with known low melting/burning points. Mixing several such compounds doesn't make any of them more heat resistant; their chemical properties (including heat resistance) would not be changed unless you'd created new and different compounds that would then _not_ be polymers. Similarly, mixing in about 10% ceramics might change the compound's mechanical properties, and polymer-ceramic composites are indeed useful materials for this reason, but it doesn't change the fact that part of the mix is low-melting, burning, smoking plastic.

I'm sorely tempted to pick a fight on the Wikipedia Talk page as well, where the most ardent defender of the Starlite story lambastes skeptical commenters as "bigoted" and "ignorant."

Re: Starlite

#62
post #5

http://www.theguardian.com/notesandqueries/query/0,5753,-557... > Mr Ward came to my lab about a year before his death needing help to turn what was essentially a party trick into a useable & commercialy viable product. The problem he had was although the powder component did exactly as it said on the tin, he had found no way of applying a lasting coating. All he really has was some powder mixed with PVA glue, the pr…

from Anon in London, UK? that's a reliable source?

Re: Starlite

#64
post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the sci-fi novel 'Friday', Robert Heinlein writes about a physicist named Daniel Shipstone who realised that 'the problem was not a shortage of energy but lay in the transporting of energy. Energy is everywhere—in sunlight, in wind, in mountain streams, in temperature gradients of all sorts wherever found, in coal, in fossil oil, in radioactive ores, in green growing things. Especially in ocean depths and in outer…

Elon Musk is by no means the first person to get that realization. As a theme only things that can be easily reproduced by looking at the very physical nature are patented. If something is easy to reproduce by just looking at the idea or invention itself, that is the kind of thing that is commonly patented. Why else do you think the patent ecosystem if full of crappiest and most obvious patents possible. It hardly ma…

You don't even need a scientific breakthrough or difficult bit of engineering to successfully use that strategy. Coca-Cola is one of the more famous cases of a company that chose to keep its "invention" secret rather than disclose it with patent filings. It was common at the time to patent the formulations of "patent medicines", and the 1890s version of Coke was indeed patented, but later formulations were deliberately not patented, in order to keep them secret.

Re: Starlite

#65
post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It doesn't prevent theft, it just easens getting compensation for theft. Numerous patent authors have put deliberate errors in the patent to prevent copying.

> Numerous patent authors have put deliberate errors in the patent to prevent copying. Seems to me anyone discovered doing that should at the very least have their patent annulled and have to return all licensing fees they've made. The whole point of a patent - in theory, anyway - is it's a bargain, a contract between an inventor and the rest of society. In return for getting a monopoly on an idea for 20 years, you h…

Teva Canada Ltd. v. Pfizer Canada Inc.[1] is interesting because Teva alleged that Pfizer broke that bargain in their Viagra patent.

The SCC sided with Teva, and in the news at the time it was reported that the patent was now invalid. However the SCC filed a clarification saying that they didn't rule the patent invalid, just that Pfizer's order against Teva producing a generic version was dismissed.

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teva_Canada_Ltd._v._Pfizer_Cana....

Re: Starlite

#66
post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are right. My mistake. Second link you provided is very informative. Bonus: What people think they can use WD40 for: http://www.snopes.com/inboxer/household/wd-40.asp

It's amazing how many people use WD40 as a lubricant. It's good for loosening stuck parts, but using it as a lubricant will wear parts quickly.

Interestingly, WD40 is a lubricant. I used to think that since it was a penetrating oil/water sealant it wasn't a lubricant, but that's not actually the case. They even have a "myth" that discusses the idea floating out there that WD40 isn't a lubricant.

http://wd40.com/about-us/myths-legends-fun-facts/

Re: Starlite

#67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I forget the quote exactly, but there was an interview with Elon and the lady was asking him about not patenting things at SpaceX. He said something along the lines of "Patents aren't going to do you much good when your competitors are other country's governments".

"We have essentially no patents in SpaceX. Our primary long-term competition is in China—if we published patents, it would be farcical, because the Chinese would just use them as a recipe book." Source: http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2012/10/ff-elon-musk-qa/al...

I'm sure he's said it a few times. This is the one I was referring to -

> Even more so when he tells us that none of the design innovations in the rocket are patented. “Since our primary competitors are national governments, the enforceability of patents is questionable,”

http://blog.ted.com/2013/02/27/transforming-transportation-e...

Re: Starlite

#68
post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Q is the heat transfer rate; see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heat_transfer_coefficient

Thanks! But, if that's the case, a higher value means a worse insulator, so why would he brag about that? (It's also a dimensionful quantity, but the reported value has no units -- maybe it's relative to some specific value...)

I think it's more likely to be a measure of heat absorbed, rather than heat transferred across a boundary. (The Telegraph's wording is "an energy absorption rating"). Starlite is apparently ablative; if this means an endothermic phase change -- the organic polymers vaporizing, without combusting -- it could absorb an extremely large amount of heat. A space shuttle tile is non-ablative (I think?), and can absorb heat only by increasing temperature.

Re: Starlite

#69
post #41
post #13

What sort of scientific Scrooge chooses to take his invention to the grave like that? What has he gained in the end?

Ages ago I spent a fair amount of time considering what would happen if someone invented a new power source. I was planning to try to write a short story based on the idea. In my imagination I invented a device the size of a fridge freezer capable of powering a small town for 100 years. The workings and science were irrelevant, but the politics of it was what interested me. I cant find the notes I made now, but essen…

This reminds me of a Twilight Zone episode called Valley of the Shadow (1963) [1]. A small town possesses a device that rearranges atoms to create or fix anything. The scientist who gave it to them told them to keep it a secret until mankind is totally peaceful. One day, a reporter's car breaks down near the town and he ends up proving that the world isn't ready for the technology.

Of course, you could argue that he reacts so badly because they try to trap him there forever...

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valley_of_the_Shadow

Re: Starlite

#70
post #54
post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ages ago I spent a fair amount of time considering what would happen if someone invented a new power source. I was planning to try to write a short story based on the idea. In my imagination I invented a device the size of a fridge freezer capable of powering a small town for 100 years. The workings and science were irrelevant, but the politics of it was what interested me. I cant find the notes I made now, but essen…

Isn't that already happening now? Look at nuclear technology. Weapons or other wise, super powers and their allies are always paranoid that developing countries may develop nuclear power and all the edge they have in negotiating anything will just go away. Inventions like things that control vast advances in science and technology are always going to be much about politics and less about altruistic nature of humans t…

Nuclear technology barriers are more technological than informational. Finding information on how simple nuclear device works wouldn't be that hard I think. Actually creating a device that would work is another matter.

But here nobody actually knows even the ideas behind this - how exactly this thing works. Which sometimes happens too - e.g. see history here about lithium batteries, which was just recently discovered how they work even though they were in use for years. But there nobody knew that, there wasn't some inventor that hides it.

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