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Being poor changes your thinking about everything

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161–170 of 196 posts

Re: Being poor changes your thinking about everything

#161

Being poor in America is a state of mind. Do you think that the majority of people in the world today would consider themselves "poor" if they suddenly traded places with a "poor" American? Do you think that the majority of people would think that it was "too hard to bear" if they had to work, live in low rent apartment AND go to school? America's poor are the worlds wealthiest. The sad state of mind that people fall…

Yes, obviously the values of maximizing toil are good values. Surely the ideal world is one in which everyone works as hard as possible, as often as possible, for as little as possible.

Except, oh wait no, that's actually the opposite of what we want.

Re: Being poor changes your thinking about everything

#162
post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These were, without a doubt, the best articles that Cracked has put forth. I've never been in poverty, but I've seen it from a near distance. I've been poor, but if push came to shove, I always had a middle-class mother I could move back to. That's a 'safety net' that many in poverty simply do not have. And so it annoys the shit out of me that when a friend in finance got a $10k raise, all she could talk about was "b…

And so it annoys the shit out of me that when a friend in finance got a $10k raise, all she could talk about was "but I lose half of it to the government!". In some strange world where 30% equals half, she's more concerned about what she lost than the fact that her gain was almost equal to a poor person's annual income. She couldn't even frame her payrise as a positive. There's more to life than feeling lucky we aren…

> That's not a bad thing. It's just a fact of life. But "you should be happy with what you have" is practically a recipe for sabotaging your ambition.

There's also the ambition to build a better society in (some of) us and part of that is paying taxes. Not all ambitions are of a material nature.

Re: Being poor changes your thinking about everything

#163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Are you serious? What about sales tax? that is 10% in California. Throw that on top. What about property tax? Car Tax?... Wtf? That's not how taxes work, guy.

Well...sure it is. Obviously you can't add up the numbers (like your parent may or may not be implying you can), but if you really want to, you can look at all the dollars you have coming in, and all the dollars you pay to taxes of any kind, and determine a percentage. I have no idea if it would be anywhere near 50%, but I suspect it would be more than 35%. (Which seems fine to me...)

If you calculate like this you should count the roads and other public infrastructure you are using as income...

Re: Being poor changes your thinking about everything

#164
post #65
post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That sounds really profound, except it isn't. That assertion is another way of justifying or rationalizing learned helplessness. It is true that there are a lot of things that suck, that few people with access to resources really empathize with those in scarcity trap. Thing is, people are not as helpless as they like to think they are.

Actually that is a perverse effect of being poor in a consumer driven society, and it is even worse in a society that value Freedom so highly like the US. Because being poor is a complete absence of freedom. If you want to get out of it, you need to follow extremely rigorous lifestyle (like the one published by MacDonald) for decades, with each mistake costing you years of saving. That is doable in the country side,…

Sure, though I have found that when people talk about freedom these days, it's really more about power and less about freedom.

Re: Being poor changes your thinking about everything

#165
post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That sounds really profound, except it isn't. That assertion is another way of justifying or rationalizing learned helplessness. It is true that there are a lot of things that suck, that few people with access to resources really empathize with those in scarcity trap. Thing is, people are not as helpless as they like to think they are.

I'm noting my observation of a social and economic phenomenon, not justifying that approach or expounding a principle we should live by. There are many incentives to being irresponsible today, and learning about being responsible with resources involves having some non-volatile resources with which to be responsible to start. When you grow up surrounded by scarcity and a general attitude of helplessness and irrespons…

Responsibility is usually a concept that is emotionally tied with blame and punishment. That's how most people talk about responsibility.

However, if you are reacting to past associations with rewards and punishments, you are not being response-able. Being responsible doesn't mean, "I am going to be a responsible adult," as in, "I am fulfilling this socially-conditioned image of an 'adult'." Responsibility means being able to make choices (whether they are informed, or not, wise or foolish, it does not matter; there is no such thing as a "responsible choice"), then accepting all the consequences of each choice. It's only when you accept what is, is, are you able to respond with more choices and actions. People tend to want to make choices, yet avoid accepting the unexpected or undesirable outcomes of those choice. By avoiding or deluding themselves into thinking the undesirable did not happen, they compound avoidance with more avoidance until they are paralyzed, unable to act. They are unable to respond.

Sometimes, to avoid a trap, you have to let things go. You let go of what seems to be urgent, accept the consequence of letting go of the urgent, in order to make room to climb out of the trap. Or to use a more concrete metaphor: if your foot is caught in a bear trap, and the bear is coming after you, and you don't want to be eaten, then chop off your foot. (That or just sit down and die with dignity).

Yes. It sucks. Yes, it will hurt. Yes, you might still die of infections, bleeding out, or get chased down by the bear. Or maybe the bear gets distracted by the newly chopped-off foot and you're able to hobble away. What is, is. You choose, you accept.

So most people who think of themselves as responsible adults are not actually responsible. They are simply re-enacting behaviors and emotional patterns of a child with a parent; the parental figure often being society and other authority figures. This re-enactment happens whether someone grows up in an environment of scarcity or abundance. In face of situations that really suck, these folk regress into the helpless child, hoping someone else will make the hard choices for them or magically make things better. Or lament that, they've done all the right things, it's not fair that things suck.

People who think of "responsibility" this way tends to use paternalistic language -- something, I think, that your word usage suggests.

Re: Being poor changes your thinking about everything

#166
post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well...sure it is. Obviously you can't add up the numbers (like your parent may or may not be implying you can), but if you really want to, you can look at all the dollars you have coming in, and all the dollars you pay to taxes of any kind, and determine a percentage. I have no idea if it would be anywhere near 50%, but I suspect it would be more than 35%. (Which seems fine to me...)

If you calculate like this you should count the roads and other public infrastructure you are using as income...

...Why? The goal of the exercise is to figure out what percentage of your income really goes to taxes, not the amount of personal value you get from those taxes. That would be a really interesting thing to figure out too, but it's not what I was talking about. (If you read my comment as implying that I think the taxes I pay outstrip the personal value I get from them, you misread it - my only point is that you absolutely can figure out what your real taxation percentage is.)

Re: Being poor changes your thinking about everything

#167
post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't see any evidence "laws then screw over the poor". Exactly what are you talking about?

Deregulation of the financial industry lets risk-hungry banks take ever greater risks, causes the financial crisis, costs taxpayer money, causes high unemployment, and leaves the rich back where they started before the crisis while the poor still suffer. Dismantling of welfare programs in order to cut costs in order to lower taxes on the rich stops critical services to the poor and keeps them trapped in poverty. Tax…

>Deregulation of the financial industry lets risk-hungry banks take ever greater risks, causes the financial crisis, costs taxpayer money, causes high unemployment, and leaves the rich back where they started before the crisis while the poor still suffer.

Meh. The recession wasn't caused by a financial crisis. The recession and the financial crisis both had the same cause - a real estate bubble. And I don't see any indication wealthy people have come out ahead here except for a handful of people who managed to cash in during the bubble. But that's not a question of how the law is structured - that happens in every bubble.

>Dismantling of welfare programs in order to cut costs in order to lower taxes on the rich stops critical services to the poor and keeps them trapped in poverty.

That's an odd view of the situation. For one thing, services to the poor have been greatly expanded in recent years. Disability, SNAP, WIC... all that stuff has been expanded. Also, existing programs like Medicaid have maintained the same level of service even as costs spiral out of control.

The only thing I can think of that's actually been cut is AFDC, if you consider a time limit on benefits to be a cut. And that's perfectly reasonable - it's supposed to be a net, not a hammock.

Also, if you really wanted to trap people in poverty you couldn't do better than to hand them money for being poor. Lots of people are on benefits for a few years and then they pull themselves out of poverty. But there's a significant percentage who'll stay on benefits because that's the path of least resistance.

> Tax liens sold to rich investors lets them practically steal homes (or get them at bargain prices) and evict the owners in order to flip them off what are sometimes ridiculously small amounts of debt compared to the home value owed by the not-well-off (but not ridiculously small compared to their financial situation).

I'm not sure you understand how this works. When you have a lien against your house and you don't pay it, the lien holder can force the sale of the property. But the homeowner gets the money from the sale after the lien has been satisfied.

Nobody's getting screwed here. People who end up with no money 1) didn't pay their taxes and 2) don't have any equity in the house.

If you didn't have a system where the city/county could take your house for back taxes nobody would pay taxes.

Re: Being poor changes your thinking about everything

#168
post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Having read these articles, there's one thing that I don't appreciate: in these articles kids of poor people are mentioned. Why in the hell are these people "producing" children, if they aren't 100% certain that they'll be able to support them for the years until they are old enough to stand on their own feet? Strokes of fate that lead to poverty are one side, but the side is reproding if you are poor: I consider thi…

Responsibility is a luxury reserved for those who can afford it.

That's just bullshit. The people who can least afford to be irresponsible are poor people.

Re: Being poor changes your thinking about everything

#169
post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is not demand for an infinite number of web programmers or web startups. Teaching every child to program just drives down the value of programming skills. You have not solved the risk or capital problems. Yes, there are a lot of problems with the education system. Wake me when you find a way to fix it that actually works in a sustainable and scalable fashion. Punishing teachers for teaching students who don't g…

We wouldn't be punishing teachers, just get ridding of a system that doesn't work. Salman Khan has a proposed a better one where schools are essentially libraries/babysitters that any child can go in and learn a self-directed curriculum. There is an 'unlimited demand' for programmers skills because of demand ran out, there would be no work left (we'd have a singularity/post scarcity) - programmers automate work.

There is an 'unlimited demand' for programmers skills because of demand ran out, there would be no work left (we'd have a singularity/post scarcity) - programmers automate work.

With people like you around, even the Singularity wouldn't get rid of capitalism.

Re: Being poor changes your thinking about everything

#170
post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure they do. But do they have a right to use the fact that they have kids to sponge off the rest of us?

They're not sponging off you. You're exploiting them.

I have no idea how anyone could arrive at that conclusion. By going to work every day and paying taxes I'm exploiting people who're staying home having kids they can't afford? I can't wait to hear how you connect those dots.
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