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Sea Change – The Pacific's Perilous Turn

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Re: Sea Change – The Pacific's Perilous Turn

#101
post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Serious question: if you're not a believer and you're not a nonbeliever, where did you wind up?

Nihilism?

I mean, say what you like about the tenets of National Socialism, Dude, at least it's an ethos.

At this point in time I'm more interested in the experiences of living and learning. I don't care enough about "ultimate" questions or answers to accept or reject them. I don't need to be right about this; tomorrow I might decide to be a hardcore fundamentalist X, for any value of X. When I talk to friends and family who have beliefs (or not) of any sort, I try to emphasize the good parts of their systems: those parts that seem the most likely to help them in the ways they need help. I also critique those concepts that don't seem likely to help, but only for that reason, not because they're "true" or not.

I've probably said too much; this is really off-topic for HN.

Re: Sea Change – The Pacific's Perilous Turn

#102
post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ups, good catch. It is from a old blog post from myself [1]. The reasoning was 10 billion people, with first world energy needs ( 10 kW). The alternative to use this number is, that you get a safety factor of 6 to account for using solar as baseload, weather and everything else that dissipates energy. Edit: Additionally, the power of solar panels used is for England, not the Sahara. The purpose of the posting was ess…

You don't need to get everyone in the world to be consuming more energy than the average European to have converted most energy to solar though. I am all for using fudge-factors to allow for rough data, but I don't see the point in starting a calculation with completely fictional data when there is data available.

Well, I like my 100% renewable future with flying cars. So I allow for some growth of energy consumption.

Re: Sea Change – The Pacific's Perilous Turn

#103
post #7

Like many who visit HN, I am an atheist. I am coming to believe, however, that the production of CO2 is the greatest sin, in the religious sense, that exists today. It dwarfs all other problems -- Syria, terrorism, the NSA, class and economic disparity, all of them. Being technologists we tend to assume (hope?) that some solution will present itself before it is too late. I am growing increasingly pessimistic that su…

You may be too emotionally committed to listen to any skepticism, but for whatever it's worth:

1. Your language ("sin", "evil", "believe") indicates a major subjective component in what you're saying. As with everything subjective, you're probably aware that it's not provable with cold facts and logic, and it might justifiably be rejected by others' own subjectivity and take on facts.

2. A pervading feeling that the world is going to hell in a handbasket has proven seductive many times in history. Does any of this sound familiar:

"[They] claim that the current society and its rulers are corrupt, unjust, or otherwise wrong. They therefore believe they will be destroyed soon by a powerful force. The harmful nature of the status quo is considered intractable without the anticipated dramatic change"

Such world views have occurred often enough that there's a consecrated term for them: [1]. Sure, the different groups that held such beliefs differed from you in how they thought it would come to pass. But they differed from each other as well.

3. There's nothing necessarily theistic about millenarian beliefs. ("Official" churches have more often than not fought against them [3].) E.g. a lot of people in the 60s thought the apocalypse was due within two decades due to overpopulation.

4. Climate models have a simple, persuasive logic behind them. But that doesn't make them necessarily right. Malthusianism also had a seemingly bulletproof logic, yet the facts did not keep pace with it [4]. When the climate models turn out lacking precision [5], they also lose the force of scientific certainty. All we're left with is "the world is warming, we can't say how fast"; which is, of course, not a falsifiable belief [6].

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Millenarianism#Theology

[2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Population_bomb

[3] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Millennialism#Reformation_and_b...

[4] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simon%E2%80%93Ehrlich_wager

[5] http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/capital-weather-gang/wp/...

[6] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falsifiability

Re: Sea Change – The Pacific's Perilous Turn

#105

Is the problem that we're simply creating more CO2 than can be manufactured back into O2 by plants? Would the practicality of a "CO2 vent to space" work? We vent the excess but obviously not everything considering we wouldn't want to destroy all plant life on earth (and subsequently our own in the process). The one major downside is if this wasn't tightly controlled and a "leak" happened we could foster the end of li…

The problem is that the carbon cycle is pretty much closed at the plant side. They create O2, but during burning, rotting or other biological activity it gets transformed into C02 again. You can see this in the data - during the northern hemisphere winter CO2 goes up, during summer it goes down. There's also a similar day-night cycle.

What happens then is that more CO2 is added, and it seems to be clear at this point that the plants are not keeping up - even losing ground due to land use change and deforestation.

Main carbon sinks are ocean uptake (the problem discussed in the article), weathering and the small amounts of organic matter that sink below the ground/sea/lakes without rotting (and which will create new coal and oil in time).

Apart from the first point, these processes happen on geologic time scales. (Also, shells of small sea animals, but again a miniscule factor. Those will be the next lime rocks.)

What you suggest is a new sink for carbon. However, it would probably cost more energy than can be gotten from fossil fuels because gravity. (Sry, too tired to run the calculations right now.)

Re: Sea Change – The Pacific's Perilous Turn

#106
post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don't need to get everyone in the world to be consuming more energy than the average European to have converted most energy to solar though. I am all for using fudge-factors to allow for rough data, but I don't see the point in starting a calculation with completely fictional data when there is data available.

Well, I like my 100% renewable future with flying cars. So I allow for some growth of energy consumption.

Flying cars? Ok, I'm sold, half the Sahara it is.

Re: Sea Change – The Pacific's Perilous Turn

#107
post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Being technologists we tend to assume (hope?) that some solution will present itself before it is too late. I have some bad news: * The problem isn't pollution and CO2 release, at last not directly. The problem is the number of people doing the polluting and CO2 releasing. * A solution would be to have a smaller worldwide birthrate. Easy to say. * But any solution to the above point is very likely to collide with e…

Please watch this video: http://www.ted.com/talks/hans_rosling_and_the_magic_washing_... In it Hans Rosling explains how something simple as making people able to use a washing machine to clean their clothes, will ultimately reduce population growth. This is because the knock-on effects of that are that women are more able to educate themselves, more able to keep their kids alive as a result of education and thus the…

> The key is not to educate people about overpopulation, but to educate them effectively in how to remove the need for high reproduction while increasing their life quality.

This doesn't take the Population Paradox into account. I'm not saying such measures shouldn't be pursued. To do otherwise would be to abandon democratic principles and the uncontroversial advantages of education.

But it won't make any difference. When medical researchers discovered antibiotics, they believed that marked the end of bacterial infectious diseases. But that was not to be -- natural selection reacted to these new measures by choosing the tiny minority of bacteria that proved resistant to antibiotics, and we now face bacterial strains that are completely resistant to any available remedies (MRSA, tuberculosis and others).

In the same way, natural selection will react by these new measures by choosing the tiny minority of people that prove resistant to education and gender equality, and we will face human strains that are completely resistant to any available remedies.

In case anyone thinks this is some kind of veiled racist rant, I personally think the resistant strain will turn out to be white people of European descent. The reason? We can and do rationalize anything to ourselves -- for example, that environmental projects will save either us or the planet, in the face of uncontrolled population growth.

See, in the Population Paradox, it's not the people who get it that are the problem -- it's the people who don't, who can't, get it. And history proves that there's no political solution that doesn't turn out to be much worse than the problem itself.

"We have met the enemy, and he is us." -- Pogo

More here: http://arachnoid.com/evolution

Re: Sea Change – The Pacific's Perilous Turn

#108
post #7

Like many who visit HN, I am an atheist. I am coming to believe, however, that the production of CO2 is the greatest sin, in the religious sense, that exists today. It dwarfs all other problems -- Syria, terrorism, the NSA, class and economic disparity, all of them. Being technologists we tend to assume (hope?) that some solution will present itself before it is too late. I am growing increasingly pessimistic that su…

As a non-atheist (christian), it's nice to have common ground on this view. It's a shame IMO that U.S. christians are so closely linked with anti-environmentalism (and the republican party, but that's for another day) but stewardship of the earth is clearly called for in both the old and new testaments.

Stewardship means handing it over to fascists?

Re: Sea Change – The Pacific's Perilous Turn

#109
post #98
post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's very easy to underestimate the power of human ingenuity. The things we do routinely today would seem to be beyond magic to someone who lived 100 years ago. How do you even convey the concept of "automated car" to someone who doesn't know what a car is? How would you explain the job of a "director of social media strategy" to someone who lives in 1913? My point is that the people of the 22nd century will probably…

Human beings have a long history of rising to a challenge This is true, but let's not use our past successes as an excuse to rest on our laurels. Right now humanity is firmly on track for ecological and economic disaster, and nature doesn't give two shits about our track record. Our problems are serious, and we must attack them head-on. Not tomorrow. Now .

Yeah yeah, I read Ishmael too.

Re: Sea Change – The Pacific's Perilous Turn

#110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a non-atheist (christian), it's nice to have common ground on this view. It's a shame IMO that U.S. christians are so closely linked with anti-environmentalism (and the republican party, but that's for another day) but stewardship of the earth is clearly called for in both the old and new testaments.

Stewardship means handing it over to fascists?

exqueeze me?
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