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Fog Creek’s Remote Work Policy

blog.fogcreek.com

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Re: Fog Creek’s Remote Work Policy

#81

Post by bowlofpetunias »

mistermann wrote: post #35
parennoob wrote: post #20

"You still have stuff like chat, commit messages, code reviews, cases, Trello boards, etc. Be a little paranoid for this time about showing your work. It will help you feel good about your time, and us feel good about granting it." Run through a de-weaselizer, this reads: "Be a good little pet, and do an extra set of tricks when we take you out to the park, so you feel good about running around in the park and we fee…

In your opinion would it be safe to assume employee morale at Fog Creek is low due to working in such an obviously tyrannical environment?

I would assume the nature of the staff naturally adjust to the nature of this kind of micromanagement.

People who don't need/want this bullshit leave, don't get hired or decline, people who need hand-holding stay.

Management-style is a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Re: Fog Creek’s Remote Work Policy

#82

Post by tghw »

parennoob wrote: post #20

"You still have stuff like chat, commit messages, code reviews, cases, Trello boards, etc. Be a little paranoid for this time about showing your work. It will help you feel good about your time, and us feel good about granting it." Run through a de-weaselizer, this reads: "Be a good little pet, and do an extra set of tricks when we take you out to the park, so you feel good about running around in the park and we fee…

As Fog Creek's first full time remote employee[0], I fully disagree with your assumption. Coming from Fog Creek, that statement has no weasel words in it, it's a genuine sentiment.

Back when I was working for the company on site, my father had his leg broken by an out of control snow boarder right before Thanksgiving. When I was home for the holiday, I realized he needed help around the house, so I asked to work remotely for a week to help him out. Joel and Michael gave me the time and told me to do whatever work I could, but not to worry if it was less than usual. I fully expected to sacrifice a vacation day or two, but they made it clear that wasn't necessary, even though I spent half of my time helping my father.

And what did I do while I was working? I wrote longer commit messages, checked in on chat, and updated my Fog Bugz cases because I didn't want to feel like I was taking advantage of my company's generosity.

It's also important to remember, in most industries, trust like this is totally unheard of. We are very fortunate to work in an industry where it is a more common practice.

[0] I left the company about 18 months ago to pursue my own startup.

Re: Fog Creek’s Remote Work Policy

#83

Post by mistermann »

lacksconfidence wrote: post #57
mistermann wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From reading the comments in this thread, I don't think very many people in this thread know who Joel Spolsky is.

Or the alternate explanation, most of the people in this thread disagree with Joel Spolsky. Given occam's razor and his fairly high profile, which is more likely?

> Given occam's razor and his fairly high profile, which is more likely?

I'll hazard a guess that you're "older", like me. I don't think Joel Spolsky has a high profile at all with forum active programmers, I mean, when did he drop out of public writing, it was many years ago.

At least to me, most of the criticism here is generally of the nature "you're wrong"....not subtle, considering the variety of things involved, just that programmers are, without exception, incredibly productive, and all work should be able to be performed asynchronously (or you're doing it wrong).

I just don't find the comments in this thread very reasonable, it seems like a bunch of young and very smart/competent kids assuming everyone is as smart and competent as them.

Do you get a sense of humility from very many of the comments here?

Re: Fog Creek’s Remote Work Policy

#84

Post by pjzedalis »

utnick wrote: post #3

This seems like a lot of rules... and kind of unfriendly. Especially for just a short stint working remotely. Whats the worst that could happen if one of the workers has a less than ideal setup while temporarily working remotely for a few days? Would it really affect company outcomes? If not, I think developer happiness would be improved by having a more laissez-faire attitude from management.

Well the real reason is FogBugz doesn't know how to predict productivity for remote workers.

Re: Fog Creek’s Remote Work Policy

#85

Post by tghw »

seiji wrote: post #31
kevinconroy wrote: post #12

Seem like too many rules for you? Use this as a reminder about why it's important to ask probing questions whenever you interview for a job. Find out what the culture is like and if it is a good fit for you. I know several developers who thrive with the environmental conditions listed here and would love having the company have rules to enforce these conditions. I also know several developers who would burn out. It's…

After looking at it again, it isn't a crazy number of rules (some are overly demanding, like video chat), but the rules seem to exist because they are trying to codify behavior of people not completely gelled into their teams. When I've worked with teams where everybody gets along, there's always updates or chats flying around with everybody telling everybody else when and where they'll be doing what for how long wit…

Video chat seems trivial, but we found out the hard way it's pretty important for team communication.[0] Think of all the impromptu meetings you have on site, just popping into someone's office to ask them about something, pulling someone else in, and ending up having an important design discussion. It's much harder to do in a chat room.

[0] As mentioned elsewhere, I was Fog Creek's first full-time remote dev.

Re: Fog Creek’s Remote Work Policy

#86

Post by mistermann »

tghw wrote: post #82
parennoob wrote: post #20

"You still have stuff like chat, commit messages, code reviews, cases, Trello boards, etc. Be a little paranoid for this time about showing your work. It will help you feel good about your time, and us feel good about granting it." Run through a de-weaselizer, this reads: "Be a good little pet, and do an extra set of tricks when we take you out to the park, so you feel good about running around in the park and we fee…

As Fog Creek's first full time remote employee[0], I fully disagree with your assumption. Coming from Fog Creek, that statement has no weasel words in it, it's a genuine sentiment. Back when I was working for the company on site, my father had his leg broken by an out of control snow boarder right before Thanksgiving. When I was home for the holiday, I realized he needed help around the house, so I asked to work remo…

Stockholm Syndrome obviously, right guys?

Re: Fog Creek’s Remote Work Policy

#87

Post by tghw »

corresation wrote: post #43
jacques_chester wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Yeah, it's an insane number of rules. I think this is hyperbole. They all basically boil down to: if you work from home, please work from home. And keep in touch. I work from home. As a rule, the best-running projects are those with daily video meetings. The 2nd best involve phone calls. The worst involve emails. Faces have enormous bandwidth. Voices a bit less. Email has bugger all for the things that matter .

if you work from home, please work from home. Do they have a "if you work in the office, please work in the office" list of rules? My experience has been that most people "working" in an office aren't working at all for the overwhelming majority of their day. But that's just office life and it's just the way it is. Marissa Mayer wants everyone in the office because she wants to set a "good" example: businesses like Y…

An explicit one? No. But it's not needed, because there's a social pressure to be working. People can see you not working in the office. But if you're at home, no one knows if you're not working. So some guidelines are put in place.

Re: Fog Creek’s Remote Work Policy

#88

Post by mistermann »

RogerL wrote: post #61
mistermann wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm just picking your comment at random out of this thread...do you know Joel Spolsky who runs Fog Creek? I'm reading all these critical comments in this thread and reconciling it in my head with what I know of him (from his extensive blogging and podcasting) and I'm thinking, have so many years passed that no one knows who this person is they're criticizing? For example: > I bet the managers or whatever they fancy t…

This blog post was not written by Joel, nor does not sound like Joel. I think the comments are justified; the blog post feels quite abrasive to me. It's a little hard to put my finger on it, but the repeated distinction between work and vacation is a bit grating. Contrast this with a company like Netflix that don't count vacation days, and that assume that it their job to ascertain the productivity of their employees…

Very well written negative critique.

Re: Fog Creek’s Remote Work Policy

#89

Post by tghw »

mistermann wrote: post #86
tghw wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As Fog Creek's first full time remote employee[0], I fully disagree with your assumption. Coming from Fog Creek, that statement has no weasel words in it, it's a genuine sentiment. Back when I was working for the company on site, my father had his leg broken by an out of control snow boarder right before Thanksgiving. When I was home for the holiday, I realized he needed help around the house, so I asked to work remo…

Stockholm Syndrome obviously, right guys?

Clearly. That's the only explanation for a happy employee with such terrible rules.

Re: Fog Creek’s Remote Work Policy

#90

Post by tghw »

utnick wrote: post #3

This seems like a lot of rules... and kind of unfriendly. Especially for just a short stint working remotely. Whats the worst that could happen if one of the workers has a less than ideal setup while temporarily working remotely for a few days? Would it really affect company outcomes? If not, I think developer happiness would be improved by having a more laissez-faire attitude from management.

How is this a lot of rules? As far as I can see, it boils down to three:

1. Be able to communicate with your team.

2. Have a place where you can work, distraction free.

3. Get approval from your team lead. (This one barely counts, since the answer would never be no.)

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