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There Is No Homework In Finland

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Re: There Is No Homework In Finland

#51

When you adjust American PISA scores for demographics, you see that Americans of all ethnic backgrounds do better than the countries of their ancestors[1]. The mystery of why American schools are so bad disappears when you control for demographics. This might also explain the mystery of why Finland scores so much higher than Sweden and Norway. There are much higher levels of third world immigration in the latter coun…

This argument appears to be cribbed from a blog post by another author that same year. But this is factually incorrect.

1. American students are not outperforming Western Europe by significant margins nor are they tied with Asian students. The blog post is based on data from the PISA 2009 survey. But the United States National Center for Education Statistics (NCES) International Activities Program displays results about high-performing students from PIRLS 2006, TIMSS 2007, and PISA 2009,

http://nces.ed.gov/surveys/international/reports/2012-hps-mr...

and shows European, Asian, and Oceanic countries outperforming the United States in producing high-performing students in reading, in mathematics (especially), and in science.

Looking at the comparable chart about low-performing students

http://nces.ed.gov/surveys/international/reports/2012-lps-mr...

shows, especially in the teenage age range after longer exposure to formal schooling, that the United States has much higher percentages of low-performing students in those subjects than countries in several other regions of the world, again especially in mathematics. Comparing national averages with United States population group averages in the manner proposed by the author is misleading, and he should have considered other data sources.

2. All the authors who write on this issue, whether they grew up in the United States or grew up somewhere else, ignore the fact that educated persons in most other countries have acquired English as a working language for personal communication. It amazes me that commenters on international educational comparisons don't even point out that young people in the United States are especially unlikely to have strong foreign-language instruction in school. Way back in the 1980s, the book The Tongue-tied American: Confronting the Foreign Language Crisis,

http://www.amazon.com/The-Tongue-Tied-American-Confronting-L...

which I read soon after it was published, pointed out that the United States appears to be the only country on earth in which it is possible to earn a Ph.D. degree without acquiring working knowledge of a second language. In those days, one way in which school systems in most countries outdid the United States school system, economic level of countries being comparable, was that an American could go to many different places and expect university graduates (and perhaps high school graduates as well) to have a working knowledge of English for communication about business or research. I still surprise Chinese visitors to the United States, in 2012, if I join in on their Chinese-language conversations. No one expects Americans to learn any language other than English. Elsewhere in the world, the public school system is tasked with imparting at least one foreign language (most often English) and indeed a second language of school instruction (as in Taiwan or in Singapore) that in my generation was not spoken in most pupils' homes, as well as all the usual primary and secondary school subjects. At a minimum, that's one way in which schools in most parts of the world take on a tougher task than the educational goals of United States schools. So if learners in those countries merely equal American levels of achievement in national-language reading, in mathematics, and in science, with additional knowledge of English as a second language, that is already an impressive achievement. As long as international educational comparisons don't include comparisons of second language ability acquired by schooling, it will be easy for the United States to rank misleadingly high in those comparisons.

3. Moreover, the author's conclusion is suspect even on the basis of the PISA mathematics scores, correcting thoughtfully rather than crudely for demographic factors. More experienced educational researchers who published a peer-reviewed popular article, "Teaching Math to the Talented"

http://educationnext.org/teaching-math-to-the-talented/

dug into the same PISA 2009 data and reached a differing conclusion: "Unfortunately, we found that the percentage of students in the U.S. Class of 2009 who were highly accomplished in math is well below that of most countries with which the United States generally compares itself. No fewer than 30 of the 56 other countries that participated in the Program for International Student Assessment (PISA) math test, including most of the world’s industrialized nations, had a larger percentage of students who scored at the international equivalent of the advanced level on our own National Assessment of Educational Progress (NAEP) tests."

The PISA program itself has published summary reports suggesting, based on the same 2009 data, that the United States schools underperform relative to levels of public spending on the school system,

http://www.oecd.org/pisa/49685503.pdf

with the report noting that "successful school systems in high-income economies tend to prioritize the quality of teachers over the size of classes," which is not the policy in most states of the United States. Based on those data, a scholar commented, "There are countries which don't get the bang for the bucks, and the U.S. is one of them,"

http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/education/2003-09-16-edu...

The PISA program issued another report on how disadvantaged students overcome their backgrounds in national school systems,

http://www.oecd.org/pisa/pisaproducts/pisa2009/48165173.pdf

and the United States underperforms the average of OECD countries in this regard too.

4. The blog post author is counting on readers not to challenge his assumption that "American ethnic groups" are causally related to comparing varied national populations with culturally distinct historical experiences and differing school systems. The author's argument appears to be based on a discredited hypothesis built on poorly collected data about the origin of group differences in IQ, with the peer-reviewed refutations of the hypothesis published well before the blog post.

Dolan, C. V., Roorda, W., & Wicherts, J. M. (2004). Two failures of Spearman's hypothesis: The GAT-B in Holland and the JAT in South Africa. Intelligence, 35, 155-173.

http://wicherts.socsci.uva.nl/dolanSH2004.pdf

Wicherts, J. M., Dolan, C. V., & Van der Maas, H. L. J. (2010). A systematic literature review of the average IQ of sub-Saharan Africans. Intelligence, 38, 1-20.

http://wicherts.socsci.uva.nl/wicherts2010IQAFR.pdf

Anyway group differences of the kind to which the author refers are, according the most up-to-date peer-reviewed research, based mostly on environmental factors,

Nisbett RE, Aronson J, Blair C, Dickens W, Flynn J, Halpern DF, Turkheimer E. Group differences in IQ are best understood as environmental in origin. Am Psychol. 2012 Sep;67(6):503-4. doi: 10.1037/a0029772.

http://people.virginia.edu/~ent3c/papers2/nisbett2012groupdi...

so they still raise the question of how learning environments may be improved for learners in some social groups in the United States.

http://www.ams.org/notices/200502/fea-kenschaft.pdf

Re: There Is No Homework In Finland

#52
Uhhuh... There IS homework in finland, on all degrees of school. There are 17-20 students / teacher on average in elementary school, but some areas sport figures of 40+ (But true: almost all of the teachers have university degree on suitable field, quite often pedagogy.) 55% went to college (2010) (References in Finnish: http://www.minedu.fi/etusivu/arkisto/2012/1406/koulutus.html... http://www.oph.fi/download/131532_Opettajat_Suomessa_2010.pd...)

Re: There Is No Homework In Finland

#53
post #8

In Finland, teachers are selected from the top 10% of college graduates.[1] In the US, nearly half of all new teachers come from the bottom third of college graduates.[2] Homework or no homework, Finnish students are learning directly from -- and personally interacting with -- some of the brightest minds in their country, every day. -- [1] http://www.smithsonianmag.com/people-places/Why-Are-Finlands... [2] http://www…

What I don't understand is how they don't run out of talent?

If you assume students are at school for 10 years (always), teachers for 30 (some dropout), this puts the staff:student ratio to 1:36, or 6% of the top graduates (if as stated, top 10%) a year. This is pretty much the lower bound of staff:student in a stable population, it can only get worse with factors such as college drop-outs and top graduates choosing other career paths.

So either the demographics are rapidly changing , the numbers or fudged or the majority of top graduates in Finland choose teaching.

Re: There Is No Homework In Finland

#54
post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1. You can compare PISA tests as stated in the infographic. 3. My mother has a master degree in math, she is a high school teacher. Her understanding of maths due to her degree sets her apart from the normal teachers with a educational math degree, or any other degree which was not math orientated. You can see in her yearly results she is a good math teacher. I understand this does not hold true for all people. But s…

> 3. My mother has a master degree in math, she is a high school teacher. Her understanding of maths due to her degree sets her apart from the normal teachers with a educational math degree, or any other degree which was not math orientated. You can see in her yearly results she is a good math teacher. I understand this does not hold true for all people. But something that you missed in the infographic is that teache…

> My personal hypothesis is that people in America (parents) give way too much responsibility to the school to educate their children and expect magic to happen from people who are merely paid to take care of your children. Quit having kids or take more responsibility in teaching them. My mother is a teacher too and I recall she spent more time teaching me stuff at home before I even went to kindergarten and that definitely helped keep me ahead of the curve. Sure, her ability to teach helped her a bit but surely it is not that hard as a parent to take more of an active interest in your child's education rather than flopping helplessly and whining about schools and such. /end rant

Do you have kids? It's not that simple. Picture this: you're a smart (at least according to the people around you) guy tht wants to give the best possible education to your kid by teaching them things at home to give them an advantage at school. You like learning and knowing things, and can't wait to pass this on to your kid. And then your kid turns out to be the complete opposite of you: an extroverted, extremely social creature that has a short attention span and who only wants to be around people and has very little interest in learning about how things work and stuff. It's really hard to connect to a kid like that - no way to spend hours teaching them things.

I used to say things like what you said until I experienced it myself. I was a bright kid who was always willing to learn, and thought I'd grow up to be the adult that teaches that bright kid things. Well, it didn't turn out that way. When your child shows so little interest in learning new things, you just give up after a while and hope it will somehow work out after a few years of going to school.

Re: There Is No Homework In Finland

#55
post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Furthermore, it's my personal policy that anyone who creates an infographic with a bar graph that starts at 520 and goes up to 570 should be ignored. I strongly disagree. It's misleading to shift the bottom of the graph some , because it still looks like an unshifted graph. But if you shift the bottom of the graph all the way up to the lowest value, it does not look at all like an unshifted graph, and should not mis…

Eyeballing the graph, if Finland has a 563 and Lichtenstein a 522, that's 7.9% higher. The point of a graph is to convey information in a concise and useful manner. The pencil graph does no such thing; it obfuscates. It's objectively worse than giving the reader the actual numbers. edit: That said, for any standardized tests, the scores generally don't follow a linear pattern. (From what I understand, they usually fo…

The source seems to be http://www.kidsinnscience.eu/upload/file/Pisa_2006.pdf where on page 22 it shows that the lowest scoring country, Kyrgyzstan, scored 322. What's more, these numbers are for Science only which is not mentioned in the infographic. I agree it's very misleading.

Re: There Is No Homework In Finland

#56
Title: There Is No Homework In Finland

In text: "Finnish students rarely do homework until their teens"

This is an extremely misleading title. In the UK I didn't start doing homework until I started secondary school at 11 (apart from the odd fun project) so it's hardly different to that.

Re: There Is No Homework In Finland

#57
post #38
post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some of my colleagues at Microsoft have worked in Denmark and they all complain about the taxation there and consider it unacceptable. I honestly can't understand that. I'd rather give half my salary in taxes to the government and get free education, healthcare and whatnot. My wife and I definitely don't aspire to be rich, as long as we're comfortable we're ok, so maybe that's our difference. What I don't get is how…

Well, first let me say that the US health care system seems like the worst one in the Western world. We skip comparing with that. [Edit: In Scandinavia] If you pay taxes for health care etc -- then someone else decides the priorities. This is potentially very bad for you . After paying taxes, you won't have enough money/insurance to go do expensive treatments in other places. (Edit: Let me put it like this. Health ca…

I had never considered that "who sets the priorities" angle. Thanks for pointing that out :) I just wish healthcare in the US wasn't so ridiculously expensive.
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