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Is there a STEM worker shortage?

blog.vivekhaldar.com

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Re: Is there a STEM worker shortage?

#41

Post by vonmoltke »

robotcookies wrote: post #12

This is a view I've held for a while... that the shortage isn't with people holding square pieces of paper with fancy latin on it proclaiming competence. Rather the shortage is a talent shortage and degrees are a very poor indicator of talent. There was another article on HN a while ago and it stated that only about half of STEM workers have a STEM degree. Meanwhile, 75% of STEM degree holders didn't have a STEM job.…

I agree the university process is part of the problem, but you need to be conscious of where the numbers come from. As the full Spectrum article mentions, different groups have different definitions of "STEM worker" and "STEM degree" that can vary the numbers significantly, so you may be comparing apples to oranges and not realize it.

Re: Is there a STEM worker shortage?

#42

Post by tekalon »

The shortage is in jobs that are willing to take graduates/applicants that know that basics, or even has experience, and then TRAIN them on what they want. Those that can pass STEM are usually smart enough to be trainable. Companies are expecting schools to teach current skills (not just theory) or students to be 100% self motivated in learning those skills on their own.

Re: Is there a STEM worker shortage?

#43

Post by jiggy2011 »

Balgair wrote: post #39

A couple of friends of mine decided to 'walk a mile in their shoes' and became hiring managers. Craigslist is a wonderful thing, especially since it is very cheap to post a job listing. My buddies put out a very generic job posting for the types of jobs they were looking for. It was a way to gauge the heat of the job market, to see the competition, and mostly to see what it was like. Their hypothesis was at least 100…

Isn't craigslist about the bottom of the barrel in terms of job advertising? I'd be pretty sceptical applying for a job posted there.

Re: Is there a STEM worker shortage?

#44

Post by epoxyhockey »

daurnimator wrote: post #18

This sounds to me like the issue is more university programs: people completing a STEM degree SHOULD come out of it able to take on a STEM job. From the hiring side, I agree with the dearth of quality candidates, and on the job training is often the current solution. From my own university experience: the wrong things were being taught, and depth was pretty much out of the question. I can only imagine its worse elsew…

This sounds to me like the issue is more university programs: people completing a STEM degree SHOULD come out of it able to take on a STEM job.

To be fair, college is not trade school, nor is it supposed to be trade school.

on the job training is often the current solution

10-15 years ago, this was standard operating procedure for college grads, as were decent training budgets to keep all employees up to date on skills. Only more recently have employers demanded a turn-key candidate while training budgets have been cut back or zero'd out.

It's pretty worrisome for the future. Many individuals in this thread complaining about lack of qualified candidates may find themselves unqualified to a future employer if they don't value training.

Re: Is there a STEM worker shortage?

#45

Post by dschuler »

dnautics wrote: post #30
trekky1700 wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wow, I didn't realize it was quite so bad everywhere. This really shows how desperately reform in the education sector is needed. Especially the last part, a student brimming with talent turned away and potentially changing fields because of it. That's scary.

maybe I'm being pessimistic, she got into an good school that I respect, she just - deserves more. EDIT: I guess I could be more specific. In the state of california, there is the Cal State system and the UC system, the UC system is considered to be the "top tier" system, and the CS system is widely considered to be "slightly less than". She got into a CS engineering program, that I happen to think creates a substant…

I went to a Cal State for undergrad, and had a great experience. None of my engineering or math classes were 'seminar-style', I always had access to my professors, who generally knew me by name. Most of the students come out being able to put something together on their own. I ended up going to to a private school for my master's, and was surprised to see so many people who wouldn't know which end to hold on a soldering iron. BUT - the student body was generally much more engaged and interesting, and I ended up having a much better time there. I just wasn't blown away by their academic superiority :)

Re: Is there a STEM worker shortage?

#46

Post by ifben »

"... how many grads do not have a decent grasp of elementary algorithms and data structures, and are not comfortable with code."

This is more a fault of computer science education than the student. I was taking 16 credits of upper division CS courses at [not renowned but not bad university]. Half-way through the term I had yet to do any programming. I realize that CS is about more than programming (my four classes broadly were proofs, computer hardware, methods of software engineering, and stats for scientists/engineers). But the only way to become good at programming is to do it consistently. One or two big projects towards the end of the term leaves you brushing up on old skills instead of building new ones.

I'll be attending Hack Reactor this fall because I want to become a good programmer, not vaguely familiar with everything CS has to offer.

Re: Is there a STEM worker shortage?

#47

Post by epoxyhockey »

anovikov wrote: post #35
angdis wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Come on... do you _REALLY_ mean they can't write a line of code? I find that hard to believe.

I know Ph.D. in computer science who can't write a line of code.

I know a Ph.D. in economics who can't balance his own checkbook.

None of these anecdotes mean anything. Humans have strengths & weaknesses, experience & inexperience, interests & disinterests. Match the person with the job or train them if they aren't a 100% match.

Re: Is there a STEM worker shortage?

#48

Post by eli_gottlieb »

There are several different localized shortages, but also a general glut.

If you're trying to hire well-trained software engineers with high-level CS knowledge in the Bay Area, good fucking luck, and make sure to pay plenty because you're getting nothing otherwise.

If you're trying to hire medical device engineers in North Carolina (pulling this out of my ass, but you get the point), there is a glut of unemployed medicine and biology grads to choose from, many with top-flight skills and work experience.

Why do we keep employing these overly large categories that conceal more than they reveal?

Re: Is there a STEM worker shortage?

#49

Post by eli_gottlieb »

Balgair wrote: post #39

A couple of friends of mine decided to 'walk a mile in their shoes' and became hiring managers. Craigslist is a wonderful thing, especially since it is very cheap to post a job listing. My buddies put out a very generic job posting for the types of jobs they were looking for. It was a way to gauge the heat of the job market, to see the competition, and mostly to see what it was like. Their hypothesis was at least 100…

The only thing that came to mind was that MOST of the craigslist postings were fradulent, just like my friend's.

This is the basic assumption, yes. It's why most of us don't job-hunt on Craigslist.

Re: Is there a STEM worker shortage?

#50

Post by bcheung »

I'm the lead developer at a tech startup in Silicon Valley and I interview about 2-3x a week. There is definitely a shortage of competent workers here. We will typically extend an offer to about 1 out of every 5 candidates because they just can't code or don't have the experience in the technologies we use. I've learned that resumes are very puffed up and that having a college degree really doesn't make much difference in terms of a candidate's competency. I disagree with the article about salaries being stagnate. In startups, especially for web developers, competition amongst companies is fierce and has driven up salaries.

Many studies use college degrees vs open positions as their data but I think this is a flawed model because what I have found is that college degrees and education / competency is only a loose correlation at best.

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